From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 11 06:03:39 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 11 06:03:43 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Syncronization of alpine mail folders? Message-ID: Dear All, Is there any approach to update/synchronize an offline alpine email archive, while I'm doing all the sending/receiving of email on a different computer (which is online)? The offline and the online computer would be connected once in a while via some encrypted file transfer via a cable. All the best John From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 11 06:41:06 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 11 06:41:36 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Google Less Secure Apps - End Of Life Message-ID: <0bae0eb0-bdb4-c935-7de3-fa5d140d6eb3@aitchison.me.uk> Executive Summary: Google Less Secure Apps (LSA) will be turned off in two stages: Beginning June 15, 2024: No new accounts Beginning September 30, 2024: Access to LSAs will be turned off for all Google Workspace accounts. OAuth and App Password access to smtp/imap/pop etc. will continue. https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2023/09/winding-down-google-sync-and-less-secure-apps-support.html?m=1 -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 11 11:13:08 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 11 11:13:14 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Syncronization of alpine mail folders? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e1dd955-f5be-4c45-bd5f-1aafaa824640@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-11 15:03, via Alpine-info wrote: > Dear All, > Is there any approach to update/synchronize an offline alpine email > archive, while I'm doing all the sending/receiving of email on a > different computer (which is online)? The offline and the online > computer would be connected once in a while via some encrypted file transfer > via a cable. > All the best The easiest way is to have both systems online syncing to the same remote IMAP server. Otherwise, there is a method using your own imap server on both machines, and syncing them. Or combinations of that. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 11 13:49:51 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 11 13:49:56 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Syncronization of alpine mail folders? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: dear Carlos, Thanks a lot, but: does that work if the offline mail archive consists of hundreds of ASCII text files, as described below? Can I maintain such an archive on one machine, synching with the other, using imap? (and if so how; is that described somewhere?) Sorry if this is a kind of stupid question... Kind Regards John *-* rom MAILER-DAEMON Fri Nov 19 10:55:39 2010 Date: 19 Nov 2010 10:55:39 +0100 From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA Message-ID: <1290160539> X-IMAP: 1243431990 0000000303 $Forwarded Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not .... > On 2024-05-11 15:03, via Alpine-info wrote: >> Dear All, >> Is there any approach to update/synchronize an offline alpine email >> archive, while I'm doing all the sending/receiving of email on a >> different computer (which is online)? The offline and the online >> computer would be connected once in a while via some encrypted file transfer >> via a cable. >> All the best > > The easiest way is to have both systems online syncing to the same > remote IMAP server. > > Otherwise, there is a method using your own imap server on both > machines, and syncing them. Or combinations of that. > > -- > Cheers / Saludos, > > Carlos E. R. > (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 18 16:59:04 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Marc Lytle via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 18 16:59:20 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access Message-ID: Hello all, I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this just stops working after a couple of days. This is coming from a WSL environment (Ubuntu). I have the master password set up and if necessary I can open the links provided in Alpine and work through the steps to re-auquthorize it. The weird thing is that each time I'm pulling down the exact same token from Gmail. The Google account info says that the access "Does not expire" but it still stops working. I have a master password file set up. If I were to main user of this account, then this would be an annoyance and nothing more, but this is set up for a blind woman who is still learning to interact with the screen reader. She is not able at this time to go through those steps. So, if there is a way to keep the authentication going on Alpine's end, I'd love to hear it. Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. -- Marc Lytle marclytle.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 18 19:24:45 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 18 19:24:49 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marc, so others can start with the basics, can you first share which Ubuntu, and which alpine you are using? Is the person experiencing sight loss also using Linux, or some other system? What I personally ended up doing, profoundly fortunately, is connecting with a talent through the Toronto Linux group who likes to create servers. I ssh into shellworld from my own chosen screen reader..there are scores of them across platforms, then ssh into his shell, where alpine is set up with my gmail account. I suspect others here will need to know more about the floor if that makes sense. Imap is creative generally, keeping gmail happy is an entirely different dance . With respect, Karen On Sat, 18 May 2024, Marc Lytle via Alpine-info wrote: > Hello all, > > I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect to the > Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this just stops > working after a couple of days. This is coming from a WSL environment > (Ubuntu). I have the master password set up and if necessary I can open the > links provided in Alpine and work through the steps to re-auquthorize it. > The weird thing is that each time I'm pulling down the exact same token > from Gmail. The Google account info says that the access "Does not expire" > but it still stops working. I have a master password file set up. > > If I were to main user of this account, then this would be an annoyance and > nothing more, but this is set up for a blind woman who is still learning to > interact with the screen reader. She is not able at this time to go through > those steps. So, if there is a way to keep the authentication going > on Alpine's end, I'd love to hear it. > > Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. > -- > Marc Lytle > marclytle.com > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 19 06:00:06 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 19 06:00:17 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2024-05-19 01:59, Marc Lytle via Alpine-info wrote: > Hello all, > > I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect to > the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this just > stops working after a couple of days. This is coming from a WSL > environment (Ubuntu). I have the master password?set up and if necessary > I can open the links provided in Alpine and work through the steps to > re-auquthorize it. The weird?thing is that each time I'm pulling down > the exact same token from Gmail. The Google account info says that the > access?"Does not expire" but it still stops working. I have a master > password file set up. > > If I were to main user of this account, then this would be an annoyance > and nothing more, but this is set up for a blind woman who is still > learning to interact with the screen reader. She is not able at this > time to go through those steps. So, if there is a way to keep the > authentication going on?Alpine's?end, I'd love to hear it. > > Please let me know if you have?any questions or suggestions. I don't have personal experience with that method; I use a different one. While someone with experience with your method comes, I'll explain mine. I use gmail application passwords. The idea is that you generate in the web interface of Google a password for each application you use, in this case Alpine. This password is random, longish, and seems to be permanent. But it requires that you have that second factor auth thing enabled. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 19 13:36:50 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 19 13:36:54 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: TWFyYywNClRoaXMgaXMgbXkgbWV0aG9kIGFzIHdlbGwuDQpZb3UgY2FuIGluIGhlciBzZXR0aW5n cyB0dXJuIG9uIHR3byBmYWN0b3IsIGNob29zZSB0byBoYXZlIGdvb2dsZSBwcm92aWRlIGEgDQpz cG9rZW4gb24gdGhlIHBob25lIGNvZGUsIGFuZCB0dXJuIGl0IHJpZ2h0IG9mZiBhZ2FpbiBvbmNl IGFscGluZSBoYXMgYmVlbiANCnNldHVwLg0KS2FyZW4NCg0KDQoNCk9uIFN1biwgMTkgTWF5IDIw MjQsIENhcmxvcyBFLiBSLiB2aWEgQWxwaW5lLWluZm8gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4gT24gMjAyNC0wNS0x OSAwMTo1OSwgTWFyYyBMeXRsZSB2aWEgQWxwaW5lLWluZm8gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiAgSGVsbG8gYWxs LA0KPj4NCj4+ICBJIGhhdmUgc2V0IHVwIEFscGluZSB3aXRoIEdtYWlsIGFuZCBJJ20gYWJsZSB0 byBzdWNjZXNzZnVsbHkgY29ubmVjdCB0bw0KPj4gIHRoZSBHbWFpbCBhY2NvdW50IGFuZCBhY2Nl c3Mvc2VuZCBlbWFpbC4gVGhlIGlzc3VlIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBqdXN0IHN0b3BzDQo+PiAgd29y a2luZyBhZnRlciBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBkYXlzLiBUaGlzIGlzIGNvbWluZyBmcm9tIGEgV1NMIGVu dmlyb25tZW50DQo+PiAgKFVidW50dSkuIEkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgbWFzdGVyIHBhc3N3b3JkwqBzZXQg dXAgYW5kIGlmIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBJIGNhbiBvcGVuDQo+PiAgdGhlIGxpbmtzIHByb3ZpZGVkIGlu IEFscGluZSBhbmQgd29yayB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBzdGVwcyB0byByZS1hdXF1dGhvcml6ZQ0KPj4g IGl0LiBUaGUgd2VpcmTCoHRoaW5nIGlzIHRoYXQgZWFjaCB0aW1lIEknbSBwdWxsaW5nIGRvd24g dGhlIGV4YWN0IHNhbWUNCj4+ICB0b2tlbiBmcm9tIEdtYWlsLiBUaGUgR29vZ2xlIGFjY291bnQg aW5mbyBzYXlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIGFjY2Vzc8KgIkRvZXMgbm90DQo+PiAgZXhwaXJlIiBidXQgaXQg c3RpbGwgc3RvcHMgd29ya2luZy4gSSBoYXZlIGEgbWFzdGVyIHBhc3N3b3JkIGZpbGUgc2V0IHVw Lg0KPj4NCj4+ICBJZiBJIHdlcmUgdG8gbWFpbiB1c2VyIG9mIHRoaXMgYWNjb3VudCwgdGhlbiB0 aGlzIHdvdWxkIGJlIGFuIGFubm95YW5jZQ0KPj4gIGFuZCBub3RoaW5nIG1vcmUsIGJ1dCB0aGlz IGlzIHNldCB1cCBmb3IgYSBibGluZCB3b21hbiB3aG8gaXMgc3RpbGwNCj4+ICBsZWFybmluZyB0 byBpbnRlcmFjdCB3aXRoIHRoZSBzY3JlZW4gcmVhZGVyLiBTaGUgaXMgbm90IGFibGUgYXQgdGhp cyB0aW1lDQo+PiAgdG8gZ28gdGhyb3VnaCB0aG9zZSBzdGVwcy4gU28sIGlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEg d2F5IHRvIGtlZXAgdGhlDQo+PiAgYXV0aGVudGljYXRpb24gZ29pbmcgb27CoEFscGluZSdzwqBl bmQsIEknZCBsb3ZlIHRvIGhlYXIgaXQuDQo+Pg0KPj4gIFBsZWFzZSBsZXQgbWUga25vdyBpZiB5 b3UgaGF2ZcKgYW55IHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBvciBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucy4NCj4gSSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIHBl cnNvbmFsIGV4cGVyaWVuY2Ugd2l0aCB0aGF0IG1ldGhvZDsgSSB1c2UgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgb25l LiANCj4gV2hpbGUgc29tZW9uZSB3aXRoIGV4cGVyaWVuY2Ugd2l0aCB5b3VyIG1ldGhvZCBjb21l cywgSSdsbCBleHBsYWluIG1pbmUuDQo+DQo+IEkgdXNlIGdtYWlsIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIHBhc3N3 b3Jkcy4gVGhlIGlkZWEgaXMgdGhhdCB5b3UgZ2VuZXJhdGUgaW4gdGhlIHdlYiANCj4gaW50ZXJm YWNlIG9mIEdvb2dsZSBhIHBhc3N3b3JkIGZvciBlYWNoIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIHlvdSB1c2UsIGlu IHRoaXMgY2FzZSANCj4gQWxwaW5lLiBUaGlzIHBhc3N3b3JkIGlzIHJhbmRvbSwgbG9uZ2lzaCwg YW5kIHNlZW1zIHRvIGJlIHBlcm1hbmVudC4gQnV0IGl0IA0KPiByZXF1aXJlcyB0aGF0IHlvdSBo YXZlIHRoYXQgc2Vjb25kIGZhY3RvciBhdXRoIHRoaW5nIGVuYWJsZWQuDQo+DQo+IDxodHRwczov L3N1cHBvcnQuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS9hY2NvdW50cy9hbnN3ZXIvMTg1ODMzP2hsPWVuPg0KPg0KPg0K PiAtLSANCj4gQ2hlZXJzIC8gU2FsdWRvcywNCj4NCj4gCQkgQ2FybG9zIEUuIFIuDQo+IAkJIChm cm9tIDE1LjUgeDg2XzY0IGF0IFRlbGNvbnRhcikNCj4NCj4K From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 19 18:36:07 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 19 18:36:10 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] more details, is Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, some have asked me off list the process I had done to use gmail in alpine. A few things I want to share about my personal situation. First, I do not actually use Linux on my desktop. Nor am I using Alpine on my desktop. Instead I am using an ssh package for DOS into a service called shellworld. This service itself uses Ubuntu. From there I am using a more conventional ssh process into the place where my alpine client and its gmail configuration is provided. For that reason, at the end of these steps, I am going to share how my source had alpine configured in Linux, the way it was compiled. This person is also using an edition of alpine just past what I have, 2.6, not 2.5. However 2.5 is, at least for me working just fine. I will add an extra note or two from myself in the provided instructions. Lastly, I had this done Last November..hopefully gmail has not removed some of these doors. Here you go. If you go to Gmail settings then See all settings then Forwarding and POP/IMAP then IMAP Access there is an option to enable IMAP, but in the client configuration instructions (link at the bottom of that section) it says "In the coming weeks, the option to 'Enable IMAP' or 'Disable IMAP' will no longer be available. IMAP access is always enabled in Gmail, and your current connections to other email clients aren't affected. You don't need to take any action." So it looks like you may not actually need to enable IMAP, but I did anyway. Karen: so did the person building this for me. Again this was last fall. Also worth noting that, at least currently, if Auto-Expunge is set to "on" in this section, deleted messages are only archived, not deleted. Further options become enabled if you turn off auto-expunge. I had to enter my password again after clicking save changes. Here are the steps I followed to test alpine with gmail just now - google asks you to confirm your identity by re-entering your password at certain points. Sign into gmail.com choose Google Account choose Manage your google account choose Security choose 2-step verification Turn on 2-step verification - this will involve receiving a text message or using an authenticator app. I can't see any way around this. Karen: there is, or was for me, a third option. Google will call you and provide a code on the phone. Personally helpful as I cannot access text messages. At bottom of section choose Backup Codes Save or print the list of codes Go back to 2-step verification page At bottom of page choose the option next to App Passwords Enter a name for the app you are setting a password for, for example alpine choose create Screenshot or write down and/or copy to clipboard the code shown Karen: this step is very important, you will need the alpine specific app code later. Choose done Start alpine (I'm assuming it's new and unconfigured) Press S for setup Press L for collection lists Press A for add collection Fill in: Nickname: for example gmail Server: imap.gmail.com:993/ssl/user=youraddress@gmail.com Press Ctrl+X to save changes Alpine will ask you to set a master password and the password for gmail The password you should enter for gmail here is the app password you copied earlier when telling Gmail you will use alpine. You can press Shift+Ctrl+V to paste if you copied it into the clipboard earlier. It doesn't matter about the spaces in between character groups, google ignores those. Press Enter Press Y to save to disk for future use when asked. press E to exit setup Press S for setup again Press C to configure alpine Fill in: Personal Name: Your name as it should appear in "From" SMTP Server (for sending): smtp.gmail.com:587/tls/user=youraddress@gmail.com Press E to exit setup Y to save changes Alpine needs to be restarted for changes to take effect, so press Q to quit alpine Y to confirm Restart alpine Press L for folder list Choose gmail or whatever Nickname you entered earlier INBOX option is your inbox Gmail option shows other folders - all mail, sent, bin, drafts and so forth. Go back to main menu Press C to compose message Write yourself or someone else a message Press Ctrl+X to send Paste or fill in the app password when asked Press Y when asked to save the password to disk for future used After that, you shouldn't need to enter the app password again. Karen: I can confirm that once all these steps are followed, other than the master password process specifically for alpine, things go smoothly. Let me place below the notes provided on this person's specific alpine compile, as stated it is a step beyond the one used on the mail server I am reaching via ssh. My source uses Debian 12. on Debian, Alpine was built with the following options: CFLAGS=-g -O2 -ffile-prefix-map=/build/alpine-091TRh/alpine-2.26+dfsg=. -fstack-protector-strong -Wformat -Werror=format-security LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro -Wl,-z,now CPPFLAGS=-Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 ./configure --includedir=${prefix}/include --mandir=${prefix}/share/man \ --infodir=${prefix}/share/info --libdir=${prefix}/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu \ --with-date-stamp=Thu Jun 9 05:12:53 UTC 2022 Karen: hope all this helps. Kare From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 01:22:18 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Damion Yates via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 01:22:46 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unfortunately Google are turning off application specific passwords this autumn. https://support.google.com/a/answer/14114704?hl=en However when I use xoauth2 it doesn't require me to reauthenticate every few days, so something must be going on differently for Marc. I don't actually use this method most of the time as I let the python app offlineimap. This syncs my mail to a small Maildir repository and alpine patched for Maildir support accesses that locally with no auth. offlineimap also doesn't require constant reauthentication. - Damion On Sunday 19 May 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info < alpine-info@u.washington.edu> wrote: > On 2024-05-19 01:59, Marc Lytle via Alpine-info wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect to >> the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this just stops >> working after a couple of days. This is coming from a WSL environment >> (Ubuntu). I have the master password set up and if necessary I can open the >> links provided in Alpine and work through the steps to re-auquthorize it. >> The weird thing is that each time I'm pulling down the exact same token >> from Gmail. The Google account info says that the access "Does not expire" >> but it still stops working. I have a master password file set up. >> >> If I were to main user of this account, then this would be an annoyance >> and nothing more, but this is set up for a blind woman who is still >> learning to interact with the screen reader. She is not able at this time >> to go through those steps. So, if there is a way to keep the authentication >> going on Alpine's end, I'd love to hear it. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. >> > I don't have personal experience with that method; I use a different one. > While someone with experience with your method comes, I'll explain mine. > > I use gmail application passwords. The idea is that you generate in the > web interface of Google a password for each application you use, in this > case Alpine. This password is random, longish, and seems to be permanent. > But it requires that you have that second factor auth thing enabled. > > > > > -- > Cheers / Saludos, > > Carlos E. R. > (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) > > -- Damion Yates - damion.yates@gmail.com London, England -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 04:13:48 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 04:13:54 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ff882db-47ac-4485-bbf7-53bb87604d40@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-20 10:22, Damion Yates via Alpine-info wrote: > Unfortunately Google are turning off application specific passwords this > autumn. https://support.google.com/a/answer/14114704?hl=en > I am not sure this applies to Application Passwords. See, for instance: Scanners & other devices For scanners or other devices using SMTP or less secure apps to send emails, use one of the following options: Configure the device to use OAuth. Use an alternative way to scan or send an email from the device. Configure an *app password* for use with the device. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 08:13:54 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Eduardo Chappa via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 08:14:04 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> On Sat, 18 May 2024, Marc Lytle via Alpine-info wrote: > I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect to > the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this just > stops working after a couple of days. What happened during the "couple of days" that you mention here? Let me explain what I am asking. Was Alpine kept open during that time and then closed, and the reopened? My thinking is that the issue you are reporting could be due to alpine not writing the password file. To check this you would have to open two parallel sessions of Alpine, the second after the first has succeeded saving the refresh token. On the other hand, I believe that refresh tokens expire if you set up the publishing status of your app to be in testing, rather than in production, and that period of expiration is a few days (seven?), so maybe take a look into that. If you run alpine with debug (alpine -d 9) you can see if Alpine found a token to try in your password file to have another way to test if alpine is saving your tokens in the password file. I hope this helps. -- Eduardo From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 08:23:09 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 08:23:14 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> Message-ID: Good Morning Eduardo: No we didn't keep Alpine opened, just every so-many days try-and-open it. While its interesting you mention opening 2 paralel instances, I want to ask a related anoyance? Sometimes while downloading a large youtube item linked from google news results, while still in Alpine, I want to still look at new mail. However, it makes 1 of the 2 Alpines read only. Is their some way of removing this restriction? Thanks so much in advance Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 09:37:38 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 09:37:50 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually, that article states that app passwords will be the exception to this rule. What they are removing firmly is the ability to use a username, me @gmail.com and password, thisismypassowrd, log in doors. app passwords, like those discussed in my post, and in Carlos's will remain. Kare On Mon, 20 May 2024, Damion Yates via Alpine-info wrote: > Unfortunately Google are turning off application specific passwords this > autumn. https://support.google.com/a/answer/14114704?hl=en > > However when I use xoauth2 it doesn't require me to reauthenticate every > few days, so something must be going on differently for Marc. > > I don't actually use this method most of the time as I let the python app > offlineimap. This syncs my mail to a small Maildir repository and alpine > patched for Maildir support accesses that locally with no auth. offlineimap > also doesn't require constant reauthentication. > > - Damion > > On Sunday 19 May 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info < > alpine-info@u.washington.edu> wrote: > >> On 2024-05-19 01:59, Marc Lytle via Alpine-info wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect to >>> the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this just stops >>> working after a couple of days. This is coming from a WSL environment >>> (Ubuntu). I have the master password set up and if necessary I can open the >>> links provided in Alpine and work through the steps to re-auquthorize it. >>> The weird thing is that each time I'm pulling down the exact same token >>> from Gmail. The Google account info says that the access "Does not expire" >>> but it still stops working. I have a master password file set up. >>> >>> If I were to main user of this account, then this would be an annoyance >>> and nothing more, but this is set up for a blind woman who is still >>> learning to interact with the screen reader. She is not able at this time >>> to go through those steps. So, if there is a way to keep the authentication >>> going on Alpine's end, I'd love to hear it. >>> >>> Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions. >>> >> I don't have personal experience with that method; I use a different one. >> While someone with experience with your method comes, I'll explain mine. >> >> I use gmail application passwords. The idea is that you generate in the >> web interface of Google a password for each application you use, in this >> case Alpine. This password is random, longish, and seems to be permanent. >> But it requires that you have that second factor auth thing enabled. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Cheers / Saludos, >> >> Carlos E. R. >> (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) >> >> > > -- > Damion Yates - damion.yates@gmail.com > London, England > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 10:12:42 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 10:12:51 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] did my more details post make the list? In-Reply-To: References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chime, Want to ask before sending a second time. Warmly, From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 11:00:41 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 11:00:43 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] quick Alpine rules question? Message-ID: Hi all, I mostly use Alpine from my office with our dreamhost provided edition of the program. To help with communications, I have a rule set up for our New York Office. I get the choice to use this when replying to messages. How do I start an email using the rule instead of my default signature? Thanks, Karen From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 11:40:15 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Milt Epstein via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 11:40:21 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] quick Alpine rules question? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <947e5618-43b6-28cd-3817-b429336a79bf@illinois.edu> I think what you're looking for is the '#' command/key ("Role" or "Compose using a Role"). It brings up the list of roles you've defined, and you can choose one to use to compose a message. Milt Epstein mepstein@illinois.edu On Mon, 20 May 2024, Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info wrote: > Hi all, > I mostly use Alpine from my office with our dreamhost provided edition of the > program. > To help with communications, I have a rule set up for our New York Office. > I get the choice to use this when replying to messages. > How do I start an email using the rule instead of my default signature? > Thanks, > Karen > > > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info__;!!DZ3fjg!_Tswtu1xADYVCPaughDuec-mDbNOf9cDaKJWS8nEoeJVdZGtcxnyrxpC6QalDODk9GEiS6iQmqBXUJOB2oIWiWi1aj3kGKtS$ From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 20 14:10:05 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 20 14:10:08 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] quick Alpine rules question? In-Reply-To: <947e5618-43b6-28cd-3817-b429336a79bf@illinois.edu> References: <947e5618-43b6-28cd-3817-b429336a79bf@illinois.edu> Message-ID: That is perfection! Was the solution I needed. Thanks, Kare On Mon, 20 May 2024, Milt Epstein via Alpine-info wrote: > I think what you're looking for is the '#' command/key ("Role" or > "Compose using a Role"). It brings up the list of roles you've > defined, and you can choose one to use to compose a message. > > Milt Epstein > mepstein@illinois.edu > > > On Mon, 20 May 2024, Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info wrote: > >> Hi all, >> I mostly use Alpine from my office with our dreamhost provided edition of the >> program. >> To help with communications, I have a rule set up for our New York Office. >> I get the choice to use this when replying to messages. >> How do I start an email using the rule instead of my default signature? >> Thanks, >> Karen >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alpine-info mailing list >> Alpine-info@u.washington.edu >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info__;!!DZ3fjg!_Tswtu1xADYVCPaughDuec-mDbNOf9cDaKJWS8nEoeJVdZGtcxnyrxpC6QalDODk9GEiS6iQmqBXUJOB2oIWiWi1aj3kGKtS$ > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 03:20:49 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 03:21:04 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 >Hello all, > >I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >just stops working after a couple of days. Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy a domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that domain? SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 05:53:57 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 05:54:04 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> Good morning everyone: I just wanted to point out that Steve is right in one way, and wrong in another What I mean by that is I have used versions of pine starting at version 3.89, all the way up to 3.96, and then when Alpine came out, I started using versions one all the way up until 2.26 Not only that, but when I was a staff member of the Tallahassee Fina in Tallahassee, Florida, I had answered a question from a user. The person wanted to know how to use pine I had written a response to this, and the administrator of the system was so impressed with the way that I handled it that I was placed on the questions answers team. I believe I still have those particular documents in one of my old backups from 1994, and then it was updated all the way up until 2007. To the issue hand. Says that Gmail is notoriously difficult to set up using Alpine. I don?t doubt that, but just from my experience just because you own your own domain for 15 or $30, that doesn?t necessarily mean that it?s easier to set up. It would be for Gmail, even though you?re right in that point. What I mean by that I own five domains of my own. GODADDY recently gave all of their email services management to Microsoft. At that point you have to pay at least $38 every year to maintain your email not only that, but I had to Ask Eduardo for assistance, because I had a hell of a time trying to set up everything, and I must?ve communicated with him at least 35 times during this entire situation, but he helped me get through it. His thoughtful and very informative posts as well a patience are a testament to how awesome he is. He just said let?s start at the beginning, so I started emailing him off list, and each time we communicated I would let him know what was going on. Then he would respond back to me, and we kept doing this until, I got 0Auth working with my domain account. I also asked Eduardo about my Gmail accounts. Eduardo help me set that up to help me set up my domains. I can log into all of my accounts. I want access to including all of the IMA account folders, and I have all of my authentication token saved. Again, I think Eduardo for his patience and his expertise in this situation. I was so happy after I got done with this that I was totally psyched. Alpine as well as the program Pine are very powerful applications. You just have to know how to open up the power so that you can wire it in right. Eduardo also help me set up so that I can respond as either of the user or my personal account. So as I stated, it is not necessarily easier to set up domain account email if you have to go through authentication token so many times that your head wants to spin backwards. Most hosts I know of use IMAP as one of the primary ways to access email. I don?t know if pop three is still as popular as it used to be, but I am at is so awesome because it does not require you to bring the mail down from your server onto your primary machine. It allows it to stay there and you go in and take care of it from there. I want to be safe or safer: however, sometimes when they try to make things better, they always seem to make things worse, which means people like Eduardo who develop Alpine have to be about seven steps ahead of somebody else who is trying to make changes to the Mail host while he is trying to update Alpine to the newest additions. 226 and he was able to tell me that some of the program of Alpine 2.24 was not operating properly because there was a piece of it that was causing issues, and he told me to update to the newest version, I?m back in business. Have a great day! Brian Sent from my iPhone > On May 23, 2024, at 6:21?AM, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > > ?Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 > >> Hello all, >> >> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >> just stops working after a couple of days. > > Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy a > domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that domain? > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 06:21:13 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 06:21:20 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On 2024-05-23 12:20, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 > >> Hello all, >> >> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >> just stops working after a couple of days. > > Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy a > domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that domain? You still need to hire something to host the mail. Instead, you could simply contract a mail account somewhere. You could even contract Gmail for groups for a group of people; consider that the group administration sets the rules, so if the group decides "no oauth2", then it is no oauth2 and simple passwords continue working. And example of a group doing this is the ieee.org All these solutions pose a problem for the individual: he has to change mail address, and tell this to everybody, and resubscribe at every site or or organization, which is no small problem. He would still need to keep the old gmail address and check it now and then for posts going there. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 06:43:30 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 06:43:44 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 May 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > On 2024-05-23 12:20, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: >> Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 >> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >>> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >>> just stops working after a couple of days. >> >> Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy a >> domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that domain? > > You still need to hire something to host the mail. > > Instead, you could simply contract a mail account somewhere. You could even > contract Gmail for groups for a group of people; consider that the group > administration sets the rules, so if the group decides "no oauth2", then it > is no oauth2 and simple passwords continue working. > > And example of a group doing this is the ieee.org > > All these solutions pose a problem for the individual: he has to change mail > address, and tell this to everybody, and resubscribe at every site or or > organization, which is no small problem. > > He would still need to keep the old gmail address and check it now and then > for posts going there. google will forward your gmail to your new address. I do this and have haf no problems, and there has been no suggestion this this will stop. Theoretically the forwarded message may be sent unencrypted, just as it might have done on the way to gmail, so they might say that this is also "less secure", but I don't think that risk is a worry. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 06:58:47 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 06:58:58 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: Steve, I imagine because it is not quite that simple for everyone. As an example, currently the owners of shellworld.net have yet to comply with host identifier changes that started in March of this year. For me that means I cannot post to lists at freelist, I am on a few, and may have mail not reach someone..yet not learn the outcome. Previously the owners hosted our mail, I agree that such seems most secure and financially productive..especially if you are charging for the service. however, apparently? far more regular care goes into hosting mail, then simply having a place for it..preventing attacks I suspect. Granted, I am considering this idea, I have domains I already own that are not tied to a hosting plan. What concerns me, is the security and consistent access to my mail in a fashion that, at least in theory, gmail makes possible. Further thoughts about the details? ..and at gkg.net the domains are less than $15 smiles. Karen On Thu, 23 May 2024, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 > >> Hello all, >> >> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >> just stops working after a couple of days. > > Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy a > domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that domain? > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 09:50:14 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Eduardo Chappa via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 09:50:29 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> Message-ID: <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> On Mon, 20 May 2024, Chime Hart wrote: > Good Morning Eduardo: No we didn't keep Alpine opened, just every so-many days > try-and-open it. While its interesting you mention opening 2 paralel instances, > I want to ask a related anoyance? Sometimes while downloading a large youtube > item linked from google news results, while still in Alpine, I want to still > look at new mail. However, it makes 1 of the 2 Alpines read only. Is their some > way of removing this restriction? I am not sure what is happening here, but coming back to the issue at hand. I found the following information on Google: Authorizations by a test user will expire seven days from the time of consent. If your OAuth client requests an offline access type and receives a refresh token, that token will also expire. the source is https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/10311615#publishing-status&zippy=%2Ctesting Does this explain what is happening here? -- Eduardo From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 10:31:10 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 10:31:15 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> Message-ID: Thank you Eduardo: So as I understand that, whether we open her inbox or not, after 7days we will not until we create a new tocan? Now, as to my unrelated question, I will ask it differently? Is their a way of opening Alpine in 2 separate consoles, without 1 of them becoming "read only"? I would like either session to act on messages. Thanks so much in advance Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 10:53:36 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 10:53:56 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Running two copies of alpine - was Re: Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> Message-ID: <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chime Hart via Alpine-info wrote: > Now, as to my unrelated question, I will ask it differently? Is their a way > of opening Alpine in 2 separate consoles, without 1 of them becoming "read > only"? I would like either session to act on messages. Thanks so much in > advance The message when you start the second copy refers to a "folder lock". Experimentation show that it is possible to re-open a previously locked folder to check for new messages. As long as you don't try to *use* both copies *at the same time* I think it will be possible, but not necessarily safe. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 11:48:24 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 11:48:29 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> Message-ID: A folder lock would have to be initiated when we?re talking about mail, in Linux, other process that runs, if you try to use either The wrong account, then it will tell you that a folder lock is in place and remind you ?are you root?? When you try to use a program more than one time. I believe this is so that the controlling process Can only happen once, because you wouldn?t want two instances of something like synaptic, running at the same time, because one of them has to have permission to modify files or to make addition changes or deletions, so root take control of the process, and locks it out, so that you don?t have two competing processes trying to do the same thing. The way you take care of that is you give it a signal 9 kill and this will release the locks process because one of them will be terminated. If you don?t have a lock created, then you have two processes fighting against each other, and it doesn?t make sense, secondly, there should only be one account that makes the changes, so if root has control, then it will complete the process. That way you don?t have two or three instances of the same account being logged in and trying to access that one process. Brian Sent from my iPhone > On May 23, 2024, at 2:41?PM, Chime Hart via Alpine-info wrote: > > ?Thank you Eduardo: So as I understand that, whether we open her inbox or not, after 7days we will not until we create a new tocan? > Now, as to my unrelated question, I will ask it differently? Is their a way of opening Alpine in 2 separate consoles, without 1 of them becoming "read only"? I would like either session to act on messages. Thanks so much in advance > Chime > > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu May 23 15:36:05 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Thu May 23 15:36:18 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> Message-ID: <603153a1-4468-c271-98d4-21b46f424761@aitchison.me.uk> On Thu, 23 May 2024, Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] via Alpine-info wrote: > The way you take care of that is you give it a signal 9 kill and > this will release the locks process because one of them will be > terminated. Please only use kill -9 as a last resort. If alpine is still running, kill -HUP will be sufficient and will allow it to syncronize all open folders and remove locks safely. kill -9 can leave files in unknown, unsafe states and destroy data. This is as bad as what the locks are trying to avoid. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Fri May 24 06:13:03 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] via Alpine-info) Date: Fri May 24 06:13:09 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <603153a1-4468-c271-98d4-21b46f424761@aitchison.me.uk> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> <603153a1-4468-c271-98d4-21b46f424761@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: <833B2BF3-B74C-46CE-A44E-0D25DB3E1276@buddy-baker.us> Andrew: Thank you for that information. I didn?t realize that you could use a dash and then the HUP after the dash. I know that signal nine is only advisable when you don?t have a choice. I?ve had a few times when you have to use a signal line because something locks up and you have to end it I remember when I was working with Eduardo when he was helping me with Alpine. When we were setting up all of these tokens, there were times when I had to signal my Alpine because I could not exit and that is because whatever master password or authentication strategy was just locking the entire system up. I guess the reason why I was using signal nine all the time was because when I was working as an online volunteer, someone would always say that they have to signal nine in a process. I?m glad that you don?t have to do a signal nine every single time and now I understand what the HUP means after the dash: it means hang up, but I didn?t realize that process hangs up like you would hang up a telephone he he he he he Have a great weekend, and I believe this one is a long one! Brian Sent from my iPhone > On May 23, 2024, at 6:36?PM, Andrew C Aitchison wrote: > > ?On Thu, 23 May 2024, Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] via Alpine-info wrote: > >> The way you take care of that is you give it a signal 9 kill and >> this will release the locks process because one of them will be >> terminated. > > Please only use kill -9 as a last resort. > > If alpine is still running, kill -HUP will be sufficient and will > allow it to syncronize all open folders and remove locks safely. > > kill -9 can leave files in unknown, unsafe states and destroy data. > This is as bad as what the locks are trying to avoid. > > -- > Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK > andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 25 05:34:12 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 25 05:34:22 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Running two copies of alpine - was Re: Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: <4ed885a5-6dd4-4216-8198-e2e47d3cb496@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-23 19:53, Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info wrote: > On Thu, 23 May 2024, Chime Hart via Alpine-info wrote: > >> Now, as to my unrelated question, I will ask it differently? Is their >> a way of opening Alpine in 2 separate consoles, without 1 of them >> becoming "read only"? I would like either session to act on messages. >> Thanks so much in advance > > The message when you start the second copy refers to a "folder lock". > Experimentation show that it is possible to re-open a previously locked > folder to check for new messages. > > As long as you don't try to *use* both copies *at the same time* > I think it will be possible, but not necessarily safe. There is no intrinsic reason to not be able to open 20 mail clients if that is your wish. Thunderbird does it, for instance. What must not happen is altering the same mail folder by two or more clients. Alpine usually complains about the inbox file or folder; but if you access the inbox by imap instead, it doesn't complain. Of course, this means you have to run an imap server locally. Or perhaps you could try configuring the second alpine to open a different (fake) inbox folder. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 25 05:43:27 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 25 05:43:32 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Running two copies of alpine - was Re: Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <4ed885a5-6dd4-4216-8198-e2e47d3cb496@telefonica.net> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> <4ed885a5-6dd4-4216-8198-e2e47d3cb496@telefonica.net> Message-ID: Well, thank you Carlos-and-All for your analysis. I am useing imap-and-once a 2nd instance opens, it says something like trying to get folder from lock. Also 1 of the 2 become read only. I notice some similarities when I try-and-open trn twice. Trn is a Usenet news client, although I can read or post news in trn as well as Alpine at the same time.. And you would think both clients are accessing the same .newsrc file. Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 25 06:40:45 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 25 06:40:53 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Running two copies of alpine - was Re: Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> <4ed885a5-6dd4-4216-8198-e2e47d3cb496@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <9097a690-e870-b7d0-0858-9e29fdc99a60@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2024-05-25 at 05:43 -0700, Chime Hart via Alpine-info wrote: > Well, thank you Carlos-and-All for your analysis. I am useing imap-and-once a > 2nd instance opens, it says something like trying to get folder from lock. > Also 1 of the 2 become read only. I notice some similarities when I > try-and-open trn twice. Trn is a Usenet news client, although I can read or > post news in trn as well as Alpine at the same time.. And you would think > both clients are accessing the same .newsrc file. Right now I opened a second alpine with no complain. I use an alternate config file, with this key change: cer@Telcontar:~> grep inbox-path .pinerc-gmx inbox-path={localhost/novalidate-cert/user=cer}INBOX cer@Telcontar:~> alpine -p /home/cer/.pinerc-gmx Of course, if you open two alpines with the same config file and both try to save configs, things would get interesting. My use case is that I have done a change to one of the folders because of a filtering problem: "imap Gmx L" {imap.gmx.com/tls/user=...@gmx.es}INBOX, "imap F Gmx L" {imap.gmx.com/tls/user=...@gmx.es/loser}INBOX, "loser" does the filtering locally, but it is very slow. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZlHqXRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVGaQAn1BwbtR9yw0DDvXr7wFJ NSMKecTOAJ90rH6Nce/dp4PeEEnJ4LsvSXaYzQ== =dZnZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 25 07:51:53 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Eduardo Chappa via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 25 07:52:07 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Running two copies of alpine - was Re: Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <9097a690-e870-b7d0-0858-9e29fdc99a60@telefonica.net> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> <4ed885a5-6dd4-4216-8198-e2e47d3cb496@telefonica.net> <9097a690-e870-b7d0-0858-9e29fdc99a60@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <20b53bca-5826-b60c-470e-9e8455578ad3@yandex.com> Carlos and Chime, the loss of a session due to locking has nothing to do with imap access or not, it has to do with the way that the messages are stored. First, let us talk about local access. In its default configuration Alpine uses the unix format for local folders (except in Windows, where it is called mbx, more about this later). The unix format locks the full folder to avoid that two users modify the folder in incompatible ways. This is the problem that Chime is experiencing. Since only one of the alpine sessions can have a lock, one has to lose the lock and the other one get it. The unix format is also the default format for the UW IMAP server, so when people access a folder in the unix format (typically inbox) through the UW IMAP server, you will see the same issue that Chime is reporting. In other words, the problem exists in this case because Chime is accessing a folder that does not support concurrent access. By the way, the reason why the second sessions steals the lock from the first and the first does not retain its lock is exactly because of needing to please IMAP users. Originally it was not possible to steal the lock. Once a folder got the lock, no on could steal it, but this was contrary to remote access, where users left their email open in the office, and they could not access it later from home. So the University of Washington had to make the last person to access the folder the winner of the lock. The mbx format used by Windows Alpine does not have this issue. Every session gets its lock and can be shared. You can have two alpine sessions access the same folder at the same time and share all the information on messages (for example, if a message is flagged "Answered" in one session, it will also be flagged "Answered" in the other session without needing to reopen the folder). If the UW IMAP server had the mbx format as default, then concurrent IMAP access could be possible and the experience that Carlos has with IMAP servers (such as Outlook, Gmail, GMX, etc.) could be repeated. In summary, the appearance that IMAP allows concurrent access but Alpine does not is just that. Concurrent access has to do with if the storage method allows concurrent access or not. So what we know is that Chime has a folder that does not allow it (most likely a folder in the unix format) while Carlos has share access (for a folder that is clearly not in the unix format). I hope this is enough information so that Chime can solve his issue. -- Eduardo From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sat May 25 11:23:45 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Sat May 25 11:23:54 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Running two copies of alpine - was Re: Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20b53bca-5826-b60c-470e-9e8455578ad3@yandex.com> References: <1f8bac0a-56ad-697a-1b3d-bc63bb5ff49c@yandex.com> <8412d816-5e3d-52d5-cd5a-89bd8cbcdebe@yandex.com> <5b4557f4-8832-32e9-f4e1-8273053750f1@aitchison.me.uk> <4ed885a5-6dd4-4216-8198-e2e47d3cb496@telefonica.net> <9097a690-e870-b7d0-0858-9e29fdc99a60@telefonica.net> <20b53bca-5826-b60c-470e-9e8455578ad3@yandex.com> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2024-05-25 a las 08:51 -0600, Eduardo Chappa via Alpine-info escribi?: > Carlos and Chime, > > the loss of a session due to locking has nothing to do with imap access or > not, it has to do with the way that the messages are stored. > > First, let us talk about local access. In its default configuration Alpine > uses the unix format for local folders (except in Windows, where it is called > mbx, more about this later). The unix format locks the full folder to avoid > that two users modify the folder in incompatible ways. This is the problem > that Chime is experiencing. Since only one of the alpine sessions can have a > lock, one has to lose the lock and the other one get it. > > The unix format is also the default format for the UW IMAP server, so when > people access a folder in the unix format (typically inbox) through the UW > IMAP server, you will see the same issue that Chime is reporting. In other > words, the problem exists in this case because Chime is accessing a folder > that does not support concurrent access. > > By the way, the reason why the second sessions steals the lock from the > first and the first does not retain its lock is exactly because of needing to > please IMAP users. Originally it was not possible to steal the lock. Once a > folder got the lock, no on could steal it, but this was contrary to remote > access, where users left their email open in the office, and they could not > access it later from home. So the University of Washington had to make the > last person to access the folder the winner of the lock. > > The mbx format used by Windows Alpine does not have this issue. Every > session gets its lock and can be shared. You can have two alpine sessions > access the same folder at the same time and share all the information on > messages (for example, if a message is flagged "Answered" in one session, it > will also be flagged "Answered" in the other session without needing to > reopen the folder). If the UW IMAP server had the mbx format as default, then > concurrent IMAP access could be possible and the experience that Carlos has > with IMAP servers (such as Outlook, Gmail, GMX, etc.) could be repeated. > > In summary, the appearance that IMAP allows concurrent access but Alpine > does not is just that. Concurrent access has to do with if the storage method > allows concurrent access or not. So what we know is that Chime has a folder > that does not allow it (most likely a folder in the unix format) while Carlos > has share access (for a folder that is clearly not in the unix format). > > I hope this is enough information so that Chime can solve his issue. Just to clarify, I am accessing all my local folders via imap (dovecot, on mbox). The only direct local folder is the main inbox. If I access this folder also via imap, then I can have concurrent Alpines. Although I have a collection that is the local folders on mbox, I take care not to use it, specially not when using two alpine sessions. I use a local imap (dovecot) server precissely to be able to access my local folders with several mail clients: Alpine, Thunderbird, evince, etc. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZlIssRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVCgkAn0TkApzV5qmUXMaXAOVL +/ZsDzFdAJ4ovvsX6lBvAo0Xyqlw4/lI2SZ9MQ== =v/2Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 26 14:51:27 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 26 14:51:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> Message-ID: <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] said on Thu, 23 May 2024 12:53:57 +0000 >To the issue hand. Says that Gmail is notoriously difficult to set up >using Alpine. Or Claws-Mail or pretty much any other email client. >I don?t doubt that, but just from my experience just >because you own your own domain for 15 or $30, that doesn?t >necessarily mean that it?s easier to set up. It would be for Gmail, >even though you?re right in that point. > >What I mean by that I own five domains of my own. GODADDY recently >gave all of their email services management to Microsoft. At that >point you have to pay at least $38 every year to maintain your email >not only that, but I had to Ask Eduardo for assistance, because I had >a hell of a time trying to set up everything, and I must?ve >communicated with him at least 35 times during this entire situation, Ugh! I guess Godaddy sucks too. I'm having great luck with ionos as my domain registrar, as well as shockhosting.net as my web host, which gives me a lot of email addresses. It would be pretty easy to transfer your domains to ionos, or any other quality domain registrar. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 26 15:01:29 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 26 15:01:36 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info said on Thu, 23 May 2024 15:21:13 +0200 >On 2024-05-23 12:20, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: >> Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 >> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >>> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >>> just stops working after a couple of days. >> >> Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy >> a domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that >> domain? > >You still need to hire something to host the mail. Most domain registrars give you a free IMAP for the domain you register with them. > >Instead, you could simply contract a mail account somewhere. This is another great alternative. But not as good, because it depends on their staying in business and you retaining them, unless their IMAP is based on a domain owned by you. >You could >even contract Gmail for groups for a group of people; consider that >the group administration sets the rules, so if the group decides "no >oauth2", then it is no oauth2 and simple passwords continue working. I see no reason to trust Google for anything. They consistently mess with people. If I remember correctly, they just up and cancelled all their Google Groups (I could be wrong about this). In my opinion, having any part of your workflow depend on Google invites disappointment. Once upon a time their motto was "don't be evil", but those days are long gone. > >And example of a group doing this is the ieee.org > > >All these solutions pose a problem for the individual: he has to >change mail address, and tell this to everybody, and resubscribe at >every site or or organization, which is no small problem. You're right. It's a whole day's work, or maybe a whole weekend's work. But if the email involves a domain that belongs to you, you'll never have to do it again, even if you change web hosts or registrars. The best time to have done it was 20 years ago. The second best time to do it is today. >He would still need to keep the old gmail address and check it now and >then for posts going there. I don't/can't check my old gmail address anymore. I just retain it so that nobody else gets it and intercepts communication set to me. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 26 18:39:12 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 26 18:39:16 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: Steve, I am going to slot into your idea the situation Marc raised from the start. If you were using adaptive technology, either due to blindness, or paraplegia, or any comparative situation, how would you effortlessly and independently host your own email? Will leave my question there. After all, some on this list suddenly found themselves at risk of losing years worth of information when google took the basic html choice away. So, putting yourself in the place of Marc's friend here, how would you just move your stuff inclusively? Just curious, Karen On Sun, 26 May 2024, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] said on Thu, 23 May 2024 12:53:57 +0000 > > >> To the issue hand. Says that Gmail is notoriously difficult to set up >> using Alpine. > > Or Claws-Mail or pretty much any other email client. > >> I don?t doubt that, but just from my experience just >> because you own your own domain for 15 or $30, that doesn?t >> necessarily mean that it?s easier to set up. It would be for Gmail, >> even though you?re right in that point. >> >> What I mean by that I own five domains of my own. GODADDY recently >> gave all of their email services management to Microsoft. At that >> point you have to pay at least $38 every year to maintain your email >> not only that, but I had to Ask Eduardo for assistance, because I had >> a hell of a time trying to set up everything, and I must?ve >> communicated with him at least 35 times during this entire situation, > > Ugh! I guess Godaddy sucks too. I'm having great luck with > ionos as my domain registrar, as well as shockhosting.net as my web > host, which gives me a lot of email addresses. It would be pretty easy > to transfer your domains to ionos, or any other quality domain > registrar. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 26 18:49:40 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 26 18:49:43 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: Steve, I do not clearly follow what you claim where domain ownership is concerned. I own my own domain karenlewellen.com That domain is hosted at a location where mail is managed by that hosting company. Because of that company's choices, I now cannot write to frelist.org mailing lists, have no personal spam filter, and..cannot write to many yahoo mailing addresses because the company this host uses does not want to apparently comply with host identity rules..but its my domain. So, what am I missing here? and how do I keep years worth of email at the same time given you claim this process is a weekend's worth of work? Again truly curious. Karen On Sun, 26 May 2024, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info said on Thu, 23 May 2024 15:21:13 +0200 > >> On 2024-05-23 12:20, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: >>> Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 >>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >>>> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >>>> just stops working after a couple of days. >>> >>> Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy >>> a domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that >>> domain? >> >> You still need to hire something to host the mail. > > Most domain registrars give you a free IMAP for the domain you register > with them. > >> >> Instead, you could simply contract a mail account somewhere. > > This is another great alternative. But not as good, because it depends > on their staying in business and you retaining them, unless their IMAP > is based on a domain owned by you. > >> You could >> even contract Gmail for groups for a group of people; consider that >> the group administration sets the rules, so if the group decides "no >> oauth2", then it is no oauth2 and simple passwords continue working. > > I see no reason to trust Google for anything. They consistently mess > with people. If I remember correctly, they just up and cancelled all > their Google Groups (I could be wrong about this). In my opinion, > having any part of your workflow depend on Google invites > disappointment. Once upon a time their motto was "don't be evil", but > those days are long gone. > >> >> And example of a group doing this is the ieee.org >> >> >> All these solutions pose a problem for the individual: he has to >> change mail address, and tell this to everybody, and resubscribe at >> every site or or organization, which is no small problem. > > You're right. It's a whole day's work, or maybe a whole weekend's work. > But if the email involves a domain that belongs to you, you'll never > have to do it again, even if you change web hosts or registrars. The > best time to have done it was 20 years ago. The second best time to do > it is today. > >> He would still need to keep the old gmail address and check it now and >> then for posts going there. > > I don't/can't check my old gmail address anymore. I just retain it so > that nobody else gets it and intercepts communication set to me. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 26 18:53:35 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 26 18:53:42 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> Well, the tocan which Marc setup for my Wife lasted 8days. And now Alpine nags over-and-over asking for passwords. It also wants me to authenticate in a browser. So I suppose gmail may not be right for my Wife, but I guess we will figure that out next Saturday. Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Sun May 26 19:14:14 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Sun May 26 19:14:18 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> Message-ID: Chime, I still agree with some others. Speaking personally, the most efficient way to interface gmail with alpine is to use Imap create an app password specifically for alpine, and configure accordingly. Although there are steps, once done, my own gmail account works just fine with Alpine. granted, I am using ssh to reach the mail server where alpine is configured, but it works. Karen On Sun, 26 May 2024, Chime Hart wrote: > Well, the tocan which Marc setup for my Wife lasted 8days. And now Alpine > nags over-and-over asking for passwords. It also wants me to authenticate in > a browser. So I suppose gmail may not be right for my Wife, but I guess we > will figure that out next Saturday. > Chime > > > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 04:16:43 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 04:16:50 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On 2024-05-26 23:51, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] said on Thu, 23 May 2024 12:53:57 +0000 > > >> To the issue hand. Says that Gmail is notoriously difficult to set up >> using Alpine. > > Or Claws-Mail or pretty much any other email client. Nope. Thunderbird wizard sets it up automatically. You just tells it "my address is somewhere@gmail.com" and it figures it all on its own. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 04:24:40 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 04:24:47 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <100e9192-a38c-47ac-ac46-4df5160b5c37@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-27 03:49, Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info wrote: > Steve, > I do not clearly follow? what you claim where?? domain ownership is > concerned. > I own my own domain karenlewellen.com > That domain is hosted at a location where mail is managed by that > hosting company. > Because of that company's choices, I now cannot write to frelist.org > mailing lists, have no personal spam filter, and..cannot write to many > yahoo mailing addresses because the company this host uses does not want > to? apparently comply with host identity rules..but its my domain. > So, what am I missing here? > and how do I keep years worth of email at the same time given you claim > this process is a weekend's worth of work? > Again truly curious. > Karen Apparently you can have your domain registered independently, and then host your email at an appropriate hoster. If you are not happy, you change to another hoster, till you find someone that does it correctly. Through all the changes, you keep the same address because you own it, not the registrar. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 05:33:47 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 05:33:57 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20240527083347.430782f1@mydesk.domain.cxm> Karen Lewellen said on Sun, 26 May 2024 21:39:12 -0400 (EDT) >Steve, >I am going to slot into your idea the situation Marc raised from the >start. >If you were using adaptive technology, either due to blindness, or >paraplegia, or any comparative situation, how would you effortlessly >and independently host your own email? I wouldn't. I'd let either my domain registrar or my web host host my email. I've never set up an SMTP server in my life. >Will leave my question there. >After all, some on this list suddenly found themselves at risk of >losing years worth of information when google took the basic html >choice away. So, putting yourself in the place of Marc's friend here, >how would you just move your stuff inclusively? Oh, you mean how can you get your gmail mail in order to get it somewhere else? You'd have to pay a sighted gmail expert to get it off for you. But the only reason for this situation is the reliance on gmail in the first place, when it's been obvious since yahoo first did that dmarc/dcom thing that yahoo, hotmail, google and all the other supposedly free mega mail companies were going to make things difficult. Also, why haven't those emails been stored locally and backed up? The best time to have fixed this problem was 5 years ago. The second best time is right now. Can a blind person use Claws-Mail or Mutt, or Alpine mail? Because if they can, then the emails can be stored on a local Dovecot IMAP server and viewed through Claws-Mail, etc. If there's not too much mail in the archive, this can also be done with Thunderbird. Can a blind person can use that? SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 05:38:03 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 05:38:08 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> Message-ID: <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Karen Lewellen said on Sun, 26 May 2024 22:14:14 -0400 (EDT) >Chime, >I still agree with some others. > Speaking personally, the most efficient way to interface gmail with > alpine >is to use Imap create an app password specifically for alpine, and >configure accordingly. >Although there are steps, once done, my own gmail account works just >fine with Alpine. >granted, I am using ssh to reach the mail server where alpine is >configured, but it works. >Karen If you can use Alpine to view email on gmail's IMAP server, then you can use fetchmail and procmail to load your own Dovecot server from any old IMAP or POP3, and view your emails there (much faster and more reliably). And you can back them up. This is a fair amount of work but I think it's easier than keeping up with all gmail's ongoing inconvenient changes. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 05:50:46 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 05:51:06 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 May 2024, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Karen Lewellen said on Sun, 26 May 2024 22:14:14 -0400 (EDT) > >> Chime, >> I still agree with some others. >> Speaking personally, the most efficient way to interface gmail with >> alpine >> is to use Imap create an app password specifically for alpine, and >> configure accordingly. >> Although there are steps, once done, my own gmail account works just >> fine with Alpine. >> granted, I am using ssh to reach the mail server where alpine is >> configured, but it works. >> Karen > > If you can use Alpine to view email on gmail's IMAP server, then you > can use fetchmail and procmail to load your own Dovecot server from any > old IMAP or POP3, and view your emails there (much faster and more > reliably). And you can back them up. Alpine officially supports OAUTH2 with GMail. I don't know about procmail, but fetchmail officially *does not* support OAUTH2 with GMail. > This is a fair amount of work but I think it's easier than keeping up > with all gmail's ongoing inconvenient changes. To be fair I think there is only the one inconvenient change (from standard passwords (aka insecure apps) to OAUTH-BEARER) but it was originally scheduled for 2019 and has been put back many times. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 06:02:16 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 06:02:23 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20240527090216.7188000b@mydesk.domain.cxm> Andrew C Aitchison said on Mon, 27 May 2024 13:50:46 +0100 (BST) >Alpine officially supports OAUTH2 with GMail. I don't know about >procmail, but fetchmail officially *does not* support OAUTH2 with >GMail. The point I've been trying to make is not to use gmail and ways not to use it. The fetchmail/procmail/dovecot thing is a way of using any old web host or registrar's POP3 or IMAP. If the desire is to use gmail, the 20 year old fetchmail isn't the way to go. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 08:02:32 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 08:02:42 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: ..which is one reason why I personally wish there was a command line build of Thunderbird. The Linux wiz who configured alpine for gmail still mutters about the differences. Kare On Mon, 27 May 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > On 2024-05-26 23:51, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: >> Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] said on Thu, 23 May 2024 12:53:57 +0000 >> >> >> > To the issue hand. Says that Gmail is notoriously difficult to set up >> > using Alpine. >> >> Or Claws-Mail or pretty much any other email client. > > Nope. Thunderbird wizard sets it up automatically. You just tells it "my > address is somewhere@gmail.com" and it figures it all on its own. > > > -- > Cheers / Saludos, > > Carlos E. R. > (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) > > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 08:25:23 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 08:25:28 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: How would you do this in DOS? I imagine that question is for Steve, since he seems to believe, speaking personally, that everyone uses computers as he does. My karenlewellen.com email is hosted with a provider who insures equal access for me. Storing more than 8 gig of gmail mail locally keeping it in context..in DOS, will be an interesting thing for Steve to answer. Minus he pay someone whose body works differently suggestion of course. Kare On Mon, 27 May 2024, Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info wrote: > On Mon, 27 May 2024, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > >> Karen Lewellen said on Sun, 26 May 2024 22:14:14 -0400 (EDT) >> >> > Chime, >> > I still agree with some others. >> > Speaking personally, the most efficient way to interface gmail with >> > alpine >> > is to use Imap create an app password specifically for alpine, and >> > configure accordingly. >> > Although there are steps, once done, my own gmail account works just >> > fine with Alpine. >> > granted, I am using ssh to reach the mail server where alpine is >> > configured, but it works. >> > Karen >> >> If you can use Alpine to view email on gmail's IMAP server, then you >> can use fetchmail and procmail to load your own Dovecot server from any >> old IMAP or POP3, and view your emails there (much faster and more >> reliably). And you can back them up. > > Alpine officially supports OAUTH2 with GMail. I don't know about procmail, > but fetchmail officially *does not* support OAUTH2 with GMail. > >> This is a fair amount of work but I think it's easier than keeping up >> with all gmail's ongoing inconvenient changes. > > To be fair I think there is only the one inconvenient change > (from standard passwords (aka insecure apps) to OAUTH-BEARER) > but it was originally scheduled for 2019 and has been put back many times. > > -- > Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK > andrew@aitchison.me.uk > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 12:05:49 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 12:05:57 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2024-05-27 a las 11:02 -0400, Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info escribi?: > ..which is one reason why I personally wish there was a command line build of > Thunderbird. > The Linux wiz who configured alpine for gmail still mutters about the > differences. Theoretically, this wizard of Thunderbird could be replicated in Alpine. But Thunderbird has maybe a hundred developers (ok, maybe not so many after their staff reduction), while Alpine has basically one. The amount of features that can be added to Alpine are very limited. And someone could take the Thunderbird code and design an interface for people with difficulties. That said, my alpine works fine with gmail, for months without touching it. In my case, using application passwords. There is always the fear of gmail removing that, but apparently they are not going to do that. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZlTZjhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV1d8An0VyhoTZmYKvkibjaq9a KzzKn0CdAJ0dao8BB5fiSydRWSn+O1CSO2S7UA== =X9+D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 15:53:51 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Cottrell, Allin via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 15:54:11 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> Message-ID: On Mon, May 27, 2024 at 3:06?PM Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > > That said, my alpine works fine with gmail, for months without touching > it. In my case, using application passwords. There is always the fear of > gmail removing that, but apparently they are not going to do that. Me too. I find it hard to see what all the fuss is about. I like using gmail for some things, prefer alpine for other things, and a google application password makes it quite straightforward to switch back and forth. The only (mild) complication that I experience is that my primary gmail account is provided by my university, which insists that I change password every year, and when I do so it seems my application password for alpine also expires and has to be renewed. Not really a big deal. Allin Cottrell From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Mon May 27 16:29:38 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Mon May 27 16:29:41 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> Message-ID: SSBoYXZlIGhvbmVzdGx5IG5vIGlkZWEgd2hhdCBkZXNpZ25pbmcgYW4gaW50ZXJmYWNlIGZvciBw ZW9wbGUgd2l0aCANCmRpZmZpY3VsdGllcyBtZWFucy4NCkNyZWF0aW5nIGEgY29tbWFuZCBsaW5l IGVkaXRpb24gb2YgVGh1bmRlcmJpcmQgaGVscHMgdGhvc2UgaW4gbG93IGdyYXBoaWNzIA0KZW52 aXJvbm1lbnRzIGV0Yy4udGhhdCBpcyBhbiBldmVyeW9uZSB0aGluZy4gIEl0IGFkZHMgY2hvaWNl cy4NClRoZSBndXkgd2hvIGNyZWF0ZWQgbXkgYWxwaW5lIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gdHJpZWQgdG8g d29yayBpbiBzb21lIA0KVGh1bmRlcmJpcmQgZm9sZGVyIGl0ZW1zIGZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBraW5k IG9mIG9kZCwgYnV0IG1vc3Qgb2YgaGlzIA0KcmVhc29uaW5nIHdhcyBzZWVraW5nIHdoYXQgaGUg a25ldy4NCkkgdG9vIGFtIHRoYW5rZnVsIGZvciB0aGUgYXBwICBwYXNzd29yZCBwcm9jZXNzIGlu IGdtYWlsLCBpdCBzZWVtcyB0byANCnNvbHZlIG15IHBlcnNvbmFsIGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgYXMgd2Vs bC4NClNvIGZhciBzbyBnb29kIHdpdGggZ29vZ2xlJ3MgcmVtYWluaW5nIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8ga2Vl cCB0aGlzIGluIHBsYWNlLg0KDQoNCg0KT24gTW9uLCAyNyBNYXkgMjAyNCwgQ2FybG9zIEUuIFIu IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tQkVHSU4gUEdQIFNJR05FRCBNRVNTQUdFLS0tLS0NCj4gSGFzaDog U0hBMQ0KPg0KPg0KPg0KPiBFbCAyMDI0LTA1LTI3IGEgbGFzIDExOjAyIC0wNDAwLCBLYXJlbiBM ZXdlbGxlbiB2aWEgQWxwaW5lLWluZm8gZXNjcmliacOzOg0KPg0KPj4gIC4ud2hpY2ggaXMgb25l IHJlYXNvbiB3aHkgSSBwZXJzb25hbGx5IHdpc2ggdGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgY29tbWFuZCBsaW5lIGJ1 aWxkDQo+PiAgb2YgVGh1bmRlcmJpcmQuDQo+PiAgVGhlIExpbnV4IHdpeiB3aG8gY29uZmlndXJl ZCBhbHBpbmUgZm9yIGdtYWlsIHN0aWxsIG11dHRlcnMgYWJvdXQgdGhlDQo+PiAgZGlmZmVyZW5j ZXMuDQo+DQo+IFRoZW9yZXRpY2FsbHksIHRoaXMgd2l6YXJkIG9mIFRodW5kZXJiaXJkIGNvdWxk IGJlIHJlcGxpY2F0ZWQgaW4gQWxwaW5lLiBCdXQgDQo+IFRodW5kZXJiaXJkIGhhcyBtYXliZSBh IGh1bmRyZWQgZGV2ZWxvcGVycyAob2ssIG1heWJlIG5vdCBzbyBtYW55IGFmdGVyIHRoZWlyIA0K PiBzdGFmZiByZWR1Y3Rpb24pLCB3aGlsZSBBbHBpbmUgaGFzIGJhc2ljYWxseSBvbmUuIFRoZSBh bW91bnQgb2YgZmVhdHVyZXMgdGhhdCANCj4gY2FuIGJlIGFkZGVkIHRvIEFscGluZSBhcmUgdmVy eSBsaW1pdGVkLg0KPg0KPiBBbmQgc29tZW9uZSBjb3VsZCB0YWtlIHRoZSBUaHVuZGVyYmlyZCBj b2RlIGFuZCBkZXNpZ24gYW4gaW50ZXJmYWNlIGZvciANCj4gcGVvcGxlIHdpdGggZGlmZmljdWx0 aWVzLg0KPg0KPg0KPiBUaGF0IHNhaWQsIG15IGFscGluZSB3b3JrcyBmaW5lIHdpdGggZ21haWws IGZvciBtb250aHMgd2l0aG91dCB0b3VjaGluZyBpdC4gDQo+IEluIG15IGNhc2UsIHVzaW5nIGFw cGxpY2F0aW9uIHBhc3N3b3Jkcy4gVGhlcmUgaXMgYWx3YXlzIHRoZSBmZWFyIG9mIGdtYWlsIA0K PiByZW1vdmluZyB0aGF0LCBidXQgYXBwYXJlbnRseSB0aGV5IGFyZSBub3QgZ29pbmcgdG8gZG8g dGhhdC4NCj4NCj4NCj4NCj4gLSAtLSBDaGVlcnMsDQo+ICAgICAgICBDYXJsb3MgRS4gUi4NCj4g ICAgICAgIChmcm9tIG9wZW5TVVNFIDE1LjUgeDg2XzY0IGF0IFRlbGNvbnRhcikNCj4gLS0tLS1C RUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0NCj4NCj4gaUhvRUFSRUNBRG9XSVFRWkViNTFtSktLMUtw Y1UvVzFNeGdjYlkxSDFRVUNabFRaamh3Y2NtOWlhVzR1Ykdseg0KPiBkR0Z6UUhSbGJHVm1iMjVw WTJFdWJtVjBBQW9KRUxVekdCeHRqVWZWMWQ4QW4wVnlob1RabVlLdmtpYmphcTlhDQo+IEt6ektu MENkQUowZGFvOEJCNWZpU3lkUldTbitPMUNTTzJTN1VBPT0NCj4gPVg5K0QNCj4gLS0tLS1FTkQg UEdQIFNJR05BVFVSRS0tLS0tDQo+Cg== From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 28 09:59:05 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Morgan, Andrew J via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 28 09:59:10 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: I use Fastmail (fastmail.com) to host my personal email. It's a paid service, but the cost isn't very high and I don't trust "free" email providers. Fastmail has a lot of nice features, which I won't bother listing here. Go check their website if you're curious. When I ran email for Oregon State University, I migrated from traditional unix mbox mailboxes with the UW-IMAPD server to Cyrus. Cyrus was created by Carnegie Mellon University, and its mailbox format (one file per message plus index files) had much better performance than the mbox format. Eventually, a lot of development work on Cyrus was performed by Fastmail (Bron plus other developers), so I knew that Fastmail was running a good product and supported open-source software. OSU migrated to Google and Exchange, and these days they use Exchange Online, so I'm not involved in running an email service anymore. We still have people using Alpine to access their university email, too. Andy ________________________________ From: Alpine-info on behalf of Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2024 6:49 PM To: Steve Litt Cc: alpine-info@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access [This email originated from outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.] Steve, I do not clearly follow what you claim where domain ownership is concerned. I own my own domain karenlewellen.com That domain is hosted at a location where mail is managed by that hosting company. Because of that company's choices, I now cannot write to frelist.org mailing lists, have no personal spam filter, and..cannot write to many yahoo mailing addresses because the company this host uses does not want to apparently comply with host identity rules..but its my domain. So, what am I missing here? and how do I keep years worth of email at the same time given you claim this process is a weekend's worth of work? Again truly curious. Karen On Sun, 26 May 2024, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info said on Thu, 23 May 2024 15:21:13 +0200 > >> On 2024-05-23 12:20, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: >>> Marc Lytle via Alpine-info said on Sat, 18 May 2024 16:59:04 -0700 >>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I have set up Alpine with Gmail and I'm able to successfully connect >>>> to the Gmail account and access/send email. The issue is that this >>>> just stops working after a couple of days. >>> >>> Why gmail? It's notoriously difficult to deal with. Why not just buy >>> a domain for $15/year and use the mailing address(s) from that >>> domain? >> >> You still need to hire something to host the mail. > > Most domain registrars give you a free IMAP for the domain you register > with them. > >> >> Instead, you could simply contract a mail account somewhere. > > This is another great alternative. But not as good, because it depends > on their staying in business and you retaining them, unless their IMAP > is based on a domain owned by you. > >> You could >> even contract Gmail for groups for a group of people; consider that >> the group administration sets the rules, so if the group decides "no >> oauth2", then it is no oauth2 and simple passwords continue working. > > I see no reason to trust Google for anything. They consistently mess > with people. If I remember correctly, they just up and cancelled all > their Google Groups (I could be wrong about this). In my opinion, > having any part of your workflow depend on Google invites > disappointment. Once upon a time their motto was "don't be evil", but > those days are long gone. > >> >> And example of a group doing this is the ieee.org >> >> >> All these solutions pose a problem for the individual: he has to >> change mail address, and tell this to everybody, and resubscribe at >> every site or or organization, which is no small problem. > > You're right. It's a whole day's work, or maybe a whole weekend's work. > But if the email involves a domain that belongs to you, you'll never > have to do it again, even if you change web hosts or registrars. The > best time to have done it was 20 years ago. The second best time to do > it is today. > >> He would still need to keep the old gmail address and check it now and >> then for posts going there. > > I don't/can't check my old gmail address anymore. I just retain it so > that nobody else gets it and intercepts communication set to me. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.troubleshooters.com%2Frl21&data=05%7C02%7Cmorgan%40oregonstate.edu%7C69b12315f78c4e1bc0b008dc7def5ab0%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C638523714172581628%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=N%2FBRs9kOSDVyq4FXtCngnXnc5Ocx%2FYVva1ZI3zIHkl8%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman12.u.washington.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Falpine-info&data=05%7C02%7Cmorgan%40oregonstate.edu%7C69b12315f78c4e1bc0b008dc7def5ab0%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C638523714172589707%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JZSQFC%2FlGZ006cz%2FypRg1mzw3qiK06%2FWoF4COmMBIxA%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ Alpine-info mailing list Alpine-info@u.washington.edu https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailman12.u.washington.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Falpine-info&data=05%7C02%7Cmorgan%40oregonstate.edu%7C69b12315f78c4e1bc0b008dc7def5ab0%7Cce6d05e13c5e4d6287a84c4a2713c113%7C0%7C0%7C638523714172594780%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6cCn6bd87H5CIBc8Hn%2BZVzs5m%2BsBLWqG7Ef3WeWD70I%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 28 10:46:44 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 28 10:46:49 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <07b840e8-d56f-7e21-2973-52fdbc1b9638@hubert-humphrey.com> Well Morgan, I have been useing FastMail for several years, here on my Linux machine. Sure I like it, but I also have my web-site hosted. Seemingly without any notice they dropped access from ncftp, so the best I can do is cadaver. I don't think I can login to their controll-pannel useing LYNX, which I don't think they have any understanding of, but yes, the price is right. Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 28 10:52:47 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Morgan, Andrew J via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 28 10:52:52 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <07b840e8-d56f-7e21-2973-52fdbc1b9638@hubert-humphrey.com> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07b840e8-d56f-7e21-2973-52fdbc1b9638@hubert-humphrey.com> Message-ID: Hi Chime, I didn't realize Fastmail also offered website hosting... I'm only using them for email. I'm sorry they dropped FTP support. As you know, they are supporting WebDAV for remote file access. Andy ________________________________ From: Chime Hart Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2024 10:46 AM To: Morgan, Andrew J Cc: Steve Litt ; Karen Lewellen ; alpine-info@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access [You don't often get email from chime@hubert-humphrey.com. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] [This email originated from outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.] Well Morgan, I have been useing FastMail for several years, here on my Linux machine. Sure I like it, but I also have my web-site hosted. Seemingly without any notice they dropped access from ncftp, so the best I can do is cadaver. I don't think I can login to their controll-pannel useing LYNX, which I don't think they have any understanding of, but yes, the price is right. Chime -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 28 11:13:46 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 28 11:13:49 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240526180129.55885933@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07b840e8-d56f-7e21-2973-52fdbc1b9638@hubert-humphrey.com> Message-ID: I agree with chime, I had an extensive conversation with the Fastmail team about their support of command line Linux tools. Not just browsers like Lynx, but even those built with some level of JavaScript, like elinks and links. To say their were far from interested in learning would be an understatement. best, Karen On Tue, 28 May 2024, Morgan, Andrew J wrote: > Hi Chime, > > I didn't realize Fastmail also offered website hosting... I'm only using them for email. I'm sorry they dropped FTP support. As you know, they are supporting WebDAV for remote file access. > > Andy > ________________________________ > From: Chime Hart > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2024 10:46 AM > To: Morgan, Andrew J > Cc: Steve Litt ; Karen Lewellen ; alpine-info@u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access > > [You don't often get email from chime@hubert-humphrey.com. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] > > [This email originated from outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.] > > Well Morgan, I have been useing FastMail for several years, here on my Linux > machine. Sure I like it, but I also have my web-site hosted. Seemingly without > any notice they dropped access from ncftp, so the best I can do is cadaver. I > don't think I can login to their controll-pannel useing LYNX, which I don't > think they have any understanding of, but yes, the price is right. > Chime > > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 28 13:46:24 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 28 13:46:30 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20240528164624.48314974@mydesk.domain.cxm> Karen Lewellen said on Mon, 27 May 2024 11:25:23 -0400 (EDT) >How would you do this in DOS? If by DOS you mean 1980's 1990's MS-DOS or PC-DOS, I haven't a clue. 1985-1996 I was a DOS expert, but haven't used it this century and have forgotten it all. Karen, I thought you were using Linux. If you had been using Linux, then what I described, once set up, would have probably been completely accessible using a screen reader. [snip] >Storing more than 8 gig of gmail mail locally keeping it in >context..in DOS, will be an interesting >thing for Steve to answer. Yes it would. If I remember correctly, DOS can't handle hard disks more than 2 gig. >Minus he pay someone whose body works >differently suggestion of course. True enough, but how much are you going to pay, year after year, for somebody whose body works differently to keep up with gmail's summary and arbitrary and frankly useless changes? Karen, I know very little about you or your situation, other than you recently became blind. I don't know if you have any other physical disadvantages, or how technical you are, or what you use email and the computer for, or what operating system(s) you use or have used before. I have even less information about the person whom the original poster (OP) inquired for. My one and only contribution, or perhaps discontribution, to this discussion is that Gmail is frustrating and difficult to work with, and for a normally sighted (I'm about 20/40 with glasses) Linux user there are immensely better alternatives that may or may not be adaptable to people who are blind. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Tue May 28 13:48:34 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Steve Litt via Alpine-info) Date: Tue May 28 13:49:09 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <20240528164834.4e4566cd@mydesk.domain.cxm> Cottrell, Allin via Alpine-info said on Mon, 27 May 2024 18:53:51 -0400 >Me too. I find it hard to see what all the fuss is about. I like using >gmail for some things, prefer alpine for other things, Wait a minute. Has this discussion been about Alpine vs a gmail webmail? I thought it was about how to use Alpine with the gmail IMAP server. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Wed May 29 00:33:28 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Wed May 29 00:33:34 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240528164834.4e4566cd@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> <20240528164834.4e4566cd@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <38c415e2-0f9f-4cd0-a3a9-5133259eb877@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-28 22:48, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Cottrell, Allin via Alpine-info said on Mon, 27 May 2024 18:53:51 -0400 > > >> Me too. I find it hard to see what all the fuss is about. I like using >> gmail for some things, prefer alpine for other things, > > Wait a minute. Has this discussion been about Alpine vs a gmail > webmail? I thought it was about how to use Alpine with the gmail IMAP > server. Not me, I have never considered the webmail, except for configuration operations (getting application password, enable 2 factor auth, etc). They have to be done on the web interface, there is no alternative. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Wed May 29 00:35:36 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Wed May 29 00:35:44 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <1fddc8b6-a0e8-bf32-cab6-233029382586@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <4538b3e6-4e8d-410f-ad2c-99353cd56819@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-28 01:29, Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info wrote: > I have honestly no idea what designing an interface for people with > difficulties means. A Thunderbird that can be used by people with visual impairments, if possible at all (I have no idea). > Creating a command line edition of Thunderbird helps those in low > graphics environments etc..that is an everyone thing. It adds choices. > The guy who created my alpine configuration tried to work in some > Thunderbird folder items for example, kind of odd, but most of his > reasoning was seeking what he knew. > I too am thankful for the app password process in gmail, it seems to > solve my personal experience as well. > So far so good with google's remaining willing to keep this in place. > > -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Wed May 29 00:37:57 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Wed May 29 00:38:03 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Gmail Access In-Reply-To: <20240528164624.48314974@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20240523062049.5f00e34f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <68AFCA9C-6EF4-4BFB-A6E0-4520B6206E94@buddy-baker.us> <20240526175127.41477856@mydesk.domain.cxm> <48325e46-ccab-1f38-e8ae-1ee78d79fbfd@hubert-humphrey.com> <20240527083803.130dbe7f@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20240528164624.48314974@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <3f239962-fc06-4117-8c3e-5ef37df7e663@telefonica.net> On 2024-05-28 22:46, Steve Litt via Alpine-info wrote: > Karen Lewellen said on Mon, 27 May 2024 11:25:23 -0400 (EDT) > >> How would you do this in DOS? > > If by DOS you mean 1980's 1990's MS-DOS or PC-DOS, I haven't a clue. > 1985-1996 I was a DOS expert, but haven't used it this century and have > forgotten it all. Karen, I thought you were using Linux. > > If you had been using Linux, then what I described, once set up, would > have probably been completely accessible using a screen reader. Maybe he means a DOS like interface, ie, the CLI (command line interface). Linux has that. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Fri May 31 16:54:19 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Fri May 31 16:54:23 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] [Lynx-dev] ANN: lynx2.9.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi folks, Current as of 31 May 2024. Karen On Fri, 31 May 2024, Thomas Dickey wrote: > The current version of lynx is 2.9.2 > > It's available at > https://lynx.invisible-island.net/ > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/ > Development & patches: > https://lynx.invisible-island.net/current/index.html > > Files: > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/patches/lynx2.9.2.patch.gz > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/patches/lynx2.9.2.patch.gz.asc > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/tarballs/lynx2.9.2.tar.bz2 > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/tarballs/lynx2.9.2.tar.bz2.asc > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/tarballs/lynx2.9.2.tar.gz > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/tarballs/lynx2.9.2.tar.gz.asc > https://invisible-island.net/archives/lynx/tarballs/lynx2.9.2.zip > > 2024-05-31 (2.9.2) > * modify makefile.in install-help to only remove files, leaving existing > directories and symbolic links -TD > * in POSIX environments, check paths for external programs to ensure that they > are executable, non-empty files -TD > * adapt special case of gzip decompression in 2.8.9dev.12 to brotli, to handle > downloads from websites which support "br" (report by Rajeev V Pillai) -TD > * updated configure macro CF_ANSI_CC_C, to reset flags on test-failure, to > keep options from accumulating. > * build-fix for NetBSD and Solaris system curses libraries, removing an ifdef > added in 2.9.0dev.11 (report by Nelson Beebe) -TD > > -- > Thomas E. Dickey > https://invisible-island.net >