From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 03:23:06 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Thomas Gramstad via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 14 03:23:11 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] How to unspam false positives? Message-ID: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> Office365 has been enforced at work, and I'm now using "Alpine with MS365 using OAuth2" and Alpine 2.26. Some legitimate e-mail is now in the Spam folder. How do I tell Alpine that they are NOT spam? A few legitimate e-mails sent directly to me -- that people tell me they have sent -- are nowhere to be found. Not in the Spam nor Trash folders, Is there anywhere else I can look for them? Sometimes an occasional e-mail via mailing lists does not make it. For example, there is a discussion thread of 6 e-mails, and I receive number 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6, but not number 4. Number 5 and 6 are replies to number 4, and I get those, and that is how I know I didn't get number 4. Thomas Gramstad From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 04:53:51 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 14 04:54:02 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] How to unspam false positives? In-Reply-To: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> References: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2024, Thomas Gramstad via Alpine-info wrote: > > Office365 has been enforced at work, and I'm now using "Alpine > with MS365 using OAuth2" and Alpine 2.26. > > Some legitimate e-mail is now in the Spam folder. How do I tell > Alpine that they are NOT spam? Hmm. It is MS365, not Alpine, that puts those messages in the Spam folder so it is MS365 that needs to be told that is wasn't spam. My first guess was that saving the message to another folder - perhaps INBOX - might do the trick, but https://www.businessinsider.com/guides/tech/outlook-spam-folder?op=1 suggests that Outlook has a dedicated "Junk" menu with a "Not Junk" option, so I am not sure that this will work. Worth a try though ... > A few legitimate e-mails sent directly to me -- that people tell > me they have sent -- are nowhere to be found. Not in the Spam nor > Trash folders, Is there anywhere else I can look for them? That page talks about Outloook as using the name "Junk" as well as "Spam". -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 06:32:03 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Brian S. Baker [VIA BBUS] via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 14 06:32:13 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] How to unspam false positives? In-Reply-To: References: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: The information that is below is correct. The folder that you use for junk mail is junk. I remember having to deal with the authentication and all of the tokens and all of that stuff, when I had to upgrade to Alpine 2.26, and if it wasn?t for Eduardo, and his patience and understanding during several emails between him, and I, my Alpine wouldn?t work as well as it does. As far as spam goes, I remember one time where they were using spam assassin as the program that was dealing with the spam. Whoever is in charge of the spam assassin would set the level that an email would have to be before it is considered spam. It looks at the headers. It looks at the body of the email and also may look at, certain words or phrases that call it spam . Then it assigns a number or a number of hash marks that are in the mail headers I believe and then it is marked [Spam] And the subject is then placed after the spam tag. Then you open up your headers all the way and you can look at the headers and you can see what the number was that was assigned. If the number is met, then it becomes spam if the number exceeds then it becomes spam if it does not reach , reach the number then it is considered not to be spam. It all depends on how spam assassin is set and it is a program that runs independently of the mail spool, I believe. With regards to Outlook 365, I?m not sure how the spam system operates, but it probably works on the same principle that there has to be a certain number of hits before the system determines that it spam and moves it to junk, or the user can hit the spam button at the top and move it to junk. I think the only way that you could determine that something was spam is to run a spam program if you have your own system, or if something is spam and is not detected and deleted, you could market a spam and I believe it is deleted after 30 days . I don?t think that Eduardo could implement a spam elimination option into Alpine because Alpine is the program that you use to read your email, but it also has the ability to send it and receive it. If Eduardo was going to do such a thing, he would probably have to know what is considered spamming be able to add algorithms or programming statements that would allow that to be marked as spam. Running a spam program against your mail. Spool can also be time-consuming and also resource intensive so I?m not sure if Eduardo could do such a thing but when we had spam assassin, running on Tallahassee free net, we were also able to use pine: version 3.95 and 3.96 to be exact: I guess that may be showing my age since we are already at Alpine 2.26, and I owe Eduardo a large ?thank you? for helping me to make Alpine 2.26 work exactly as it intends. It was a little resource intensive brain wise, but I got it working! Sometimes I think Microsoft products are awesome, and sometimes I think they are prohibitive. I remember when Microsoft would make us do stuff like upgrade Windows because it says it has an update and then it automatically starts the process. I remember one time where I was working on a document, and I save that document. I was running windows XP, everything was fine, then I had to go into the bathroom by the time that happened and update happened and all the sudden I?m running windows 10! I was livid and I had to run a program called ? stop 10? that removes the ability of the system to upgrade the Windows 10 because it stops that process and delete it. They should be the one to decide when they upgrade to windows and what version to upgrade to and not an automatic upgrade script that was one of the downsides of windows. Since I work in the computer industry and have worked there for 35 years on and off, I know that this can be a pain because in the granite industry for example, some companies run and other equipment based on computers, and they use computers for CAD design and other things, and the size can be controlled by that particular machine. The only disadvantage to having windows do an auto update is that if the granite industry, for example, doesn?t have their windows exactly right to the right version and everything compatible before the upgrade happens the next morning then they have to back out the updates and sometimes that?s even more ridiculous than letting it update. That is why it?s important that windows understand that it?s the user that should decide not the machine. Nowadays, windows 10 does not do automatic updates and neither does Windows 11. You can tell the computer not to do the updates, but it took a long time for Microsoft to get the point. Automatic updates can screw up machinery that depends on a Windows 7 installation to run otherwise it would cause problems if they?re not ready to upgrade or unable to that is why Windows XP had the longest life of any system that I remember. Now that we have 0365, they say it?s better than outlook express and it?s better than the online version of Outlook, but I?ve learned that the best thing to do is to have most of your mail online. That way you don?t lose your mailbox, you don?t have to back up OST files or DAT files to keep your mail current. Having it on Microsoft servers can be a pain in the neck but at least if you have your mail online, you don?t have to worry about transferring it down or making sure that you have all the email that you have. Take care! Brian Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2024, at 7:54?AM, Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info wrote: > > ?On Thu, 14 Nov 2024, Thomas Gramstad via Alpine-info wrote: > >> >> Office365 has been enforced at work, and I'm now using "Alpine >> with MS365 using OAuth2" and Alpine 2.26. >> >> Some legitimate e-mail is now in the Spam folder. How do I tell >> Alpine that they are NOT spam? > > Hmm. > It is MS365, not Alpine, that puts those messages in the Spam folder > so it is MS365 that needs to be told that is wasn't spam. > > My first guess was that saving the message to another folder > - perhaps INBOX - might do the trick, but > https://www.businessinsider.com/guides/tech/outlook-spam-folder?op=1 > suggests that Outlook has a dedicated "Junk" menu with a "Not Junk" option, so I am not sure that this will work. Worth a try though ... > >> A few legitimate e-mails sent directly to me -- that people tell >> me they have sent -- are nowhere to be found. Not in the Spam nor >> Trash folders, Is there anywhere else I can look for them? > > That page talks about Outloook as using the name "Junk" as well as "Spam". > > -- > Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK > andrew@aitchison.me.uk > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 09:00:04 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Milt Epstein via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:00:19 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] How to unspam false positives? In-Reply-To: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> References: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2024, Thomas Gramstad via Alpine-info wrote: > Office365 has been enforced at work, and I'm now using "Alpine > with MS365 using OAuth2" and Alpine 2.26. Similar for me. I don't know if you're having Alpine talk to MS365 using IMAP, or instead using something like fetchmail to get the messages. (I've done both of these, although I have more experience with the latter.) > Some legitimate e-mail is now in the Spam folder. How do I tell > Alpine that they are NOT spam? As someone said, it is MS365 that is marking them as spam, not Alpine, so you'd have to tell MS365 that it's not spam, not Alpine. There should be a way to do that through the MS365 web interface -- but you may have to do it for each such message individually. A couple things I'll add: With my work's setup, the spam folder is called "Junk Email". And instead or, or perhaps in addition to, telling MS365 that the messages are not spam, you may be able to connect to that folder directly (or get the messages from that folder directly). > A few legitimate e-mails sent directly to me -- that people tell > me they have sent -- are nowhere to be found. Not in the Spam nor > Trash folders, Is there anywhere else I can look for them? > > Sometimes an occasional e-mail via mailing lists does not make > it. For example, there is a discussion thread of 6 e-mails, and I > receive number 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6, but not number 4. Number 5 and 6 > are replies to number 4, and I get those, and that is how I know > I didn't get number 4. These are probably the same thing -- some messages not getting through, some individual/direct messages and some mailing list messages. I've noticed this happen for me as well (maybe only for the latter case, since those you can notice by yourself, as you point out). I've investigated this in my setup, and haven't been able to determine for sure what happened. Now, my setup does have a virus/spam detection system as part of the overall system (I mean that my work takes care of -- I don't know or have access to the details of how it works), and I believe things they believe to be viruses and perhaps also guaranteed/100% spam they simply trash without even sending to MS365. So perhaps that's what's happening with these messages. But that's just a guess. If anyone has better hypthoses, or more definitive knowledge, as to what might've happening, I'd be happy to hear them. > Thomas Gramstad Milt Epstein mepstein@illinois.edu From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 11:15:37 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 14 11:15:42 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] How to unspam false positives? In-Reply-To: References: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <01b7730c-8af4-d92e-3b12-b9a036b0f203@telefonica.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2024-11-14 at 11:00 -0600, Milt Epstein via Alpine-info wrote: > On Thu, 14 Nov 2024, Thomas Gramstad via Alpine-info wrote: > >> Office365 has been enforced at work, and I'm now using "Alpine >> with MS365 using OAuth2" and Alpine 2.26. > > Similar for me. I don't know if you're having Alpine talk to MS365 > using IMAP, or instead using something like fetchmail to get the > messages. (I've done both of these, although I have more experience > with the latter.) > > >> Some legitimate e-mail is now in the Spam folder. How do I tell >> Alpine that they are NOT spam? > > As someone said, it is MS365 that is marking them as spam, not Alpine, > so you'd have to tell MS365 that it's not spam, not Alpine. There > should be a way to do that through the MS365 web interface -- but you > may have to do it for each such message individually. There are two things to do: - remove the junk/spam flag, if it exists (I don't know how it is stored) - move the mail to the inbox folder. Thunderbird can do this; but whether the server learns and retrains the bayes database, it is a different question (depends on each server). The only method to be reasonably sure is to use the web interface. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZzZMWRwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV764AmQHp3l2ApuP6PO9OiOyY fBDN8mASAJ40U3IgoZe5JPMfmBoG4HA6IVmlnA== =e7Ku -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 14 13:54:24 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Milt Epstein via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 14 13:54:32 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] How to unspam false positives? In-Reply-To: <01b7730c-8af4-d92e-3b12-b9a036b0f203@telefonica.net> References: <7949d7eb-63f-f1f3-1a41-7c973cbb358@ifi.uio.no> <01b7730c-8af4-d92e-3b12-b9a036b0f203@telefonica.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: [ ... ] > There are two things to do: > > - remove the junk/spam flag, if it exists (I don't know how it is > stored) > - move the mail to the inbox folder. > > Thunderbird can do this; but whether the server learns and retrains the bayes > database, it is a different question (depends on each server). The only method > to be reasonably sure is to use the web interface. Right. As this page says: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/label-a-message-as-junk-or-not-junk-44d9bad9-c8e2-479f-8344-8549bb65019d Note: Clicking Not Junk or Mark as Not Junk does not instruct Outlook to classify similar messages as non-junk. To help prevent legitimate messages from reaching the junk folder, you can add a sender to your Outlook contacts or classify all messages from a sender's domain as non-junk. If you are on a mailing list, you can use Mailing List Manager to make sure that messages are handled by a mailing list rule and not classified as junk. Milt Epstein mepstein@illinois.edu From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Wed Nov 27 18:54:53 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Wed Nov 27 18:54:56 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? Message-ID: Hi all, Is there a process in alpine to white list an address, or domain, insuring mail reaches you from that location? Thanks, Kare From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Wed Nov 27 21:30:35 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Wed Nov 27 21:30:52 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> On Wed, 27 Nov 2024, Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info wrote: > Hi all, > Is there a process in alpine to white list an address, > or domain, insuring mail reaches you from that location? I am afraid not. The message has alredy reached your mail-box, your spam folder or been rejected, by the time it would be visible to alpine. Shellworld may have a way to do something equivalent on the server; you could ask them. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 02:54:56 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Chime Hart via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 02:55:02 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: Well Karen, several years ago we had "spam-asassin" which had separate files involving white-and-black listing, which at that time Ken or his users could edit. I really don't know why Shellworld went away from that aproach? I just looked in my dot spam asassin directory, files are from 2015-and-2016. Chime From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 05:20:13 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Barry Landy via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 05:20:23 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: it still exists and is very good. On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Chime Hart via Alpine-info wrote: :>Well Karen, several years ago we had "spam-asassin" which had separate files :>involving white-and-black listing, which at that time Ken or his users could :>edit. I really don't know why Shellworld went away from that aproach? I just :>looked in my dot spam asassin directory, files are from 2015-and-2016. :>Chime :> :>_______________________________________________ :>Alpine-info mailing list :>Alpine-info@u.washington.edu :>http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info :> -- Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 Mobile +44-7771-933945 Cambridge CB4 3PB England Email BarryLandy@cantab.net From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 06:38:23 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 06:38:25 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: Good morning, My question has nothing to do with shellworld. This is tied to the alpine setup currently managing my gmail, and that connecting location's email. I too have no idea why shellworld no longer has spam assassin, save that Luke Davis stated he did not like the program. Is the only way to white list in alpine via a spam filtering program? On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Barry Landy via Alpine-info wrote: > it still exists and is very good. > > On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Chime Hart via Alpine-info wrote: > > :>Well Karen, several years ago we had "spam-asassin" which had separate files > :>involving white-and-black listing, which at that time Ken or his users could > :>edit. I really don't know why Shellworld went away from that aproach? I just > :>looked in my dot spam asassin directory, files are from 2015-and-2016. > :>Chime > :> > :>_______________________________________________ > :>Alpine-info mailing list > :>Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > :>http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > :> > > -- > Barry Landy Home: +44-1223-570417 > 192, Gilbert Road College: +44-1223-362062 > Mobile +44-7771-933945 > Cambridge CB4 3PB > England Email BarryLandy@cantab.net > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 07:15:03 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Rob Wolfconf via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:15:18 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: Dear Karen, > My question has nothing to do with shellworld. They thought you are asking about mails on shellworld, probably because you have sent the email from shell world. So back to your original question: > Is there a process in alpine to white list an address, or domain, insuring > mail reaches you from that location? > This is tied to the alpine setup currently managing my gmail, and that > connecting location's email. As Andrew has already written, there is now process in alpine to do anything with spam or false positive spam or ham. Alpine is just IMAP client, UI to your mails stored on the mail server. Another UI is the WebMail UI from google. Other UI is Thunderbird. The spam decision is made on the target server, in your case the Gmail server. The server decides, if the email is spam or not and stores the email either in Junk Folder (if the email is spam) or (if the email is not spam) process filter rules stored on gmail server (if any) and stores the email to some other folder according to filters. Then you connect with alpine over IMAP to display content of the folders. If you have defined some filter rules in alpine, then alpine process the emails in the folders and can move the emails to other folders. Usually the antispam configuration and/or rules are available in the WebUI of the provider, in this case google. Some IMAP servers use sieve filters, which can be managed over WebUI IMAP Client (e.g. roundcube or rainloop, maybe Thunderbird too). But the antispam solution is separated from sieve/filtering rules. Sometimes can be antispam solution completely disabled (I have disabled it by google on my account). And sometimes you can really define your own whitelist and block/blacklists (O365), or sometimes it's mixed - whitelist/blacklist and spam/ham learning - you can mark some delivered email as spam, or you can mark some email in junk as non-spam and antispam solution should learn, because blacklisting does not work, if spammers use random email addresses. > Is the only way to white list in alpine via a spam filtering program? No. Alpine is IMAP client, not antispam filter. You have to do it on the server, probably in the WebUI. Only thing you can do is to create filter, which moves all emails from Junk Folder to INBOX as soon as you open Junk folder in alpine. Regards, Robert. From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 10:40:03 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 10:40:08 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2024-11-28 at 16:15 +0100, Rob Wolfconf via Alpine-info wrote: > Dear Karen, >> Is the only way to white list in alpine via a spam filtering program? > > No. Alpine is IMAP client, not antispam filter. You have to do it on > the server, probably in the WebUI. Only thing you can do is to create > filter, which moves all emails from Junk Folder to INBOX as soon as > you open Junk folder in alpine. You can also do it on the client, but indirectly. On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like fetchmail. This handles the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting tool, like procmail, which calls spamassassin as a part of the process, then finally Alpine. But you loose the immediacy of imap. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZ0i5Axwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVA1kAn1xvKZ2MGinUJ5W9eudy 764+3AeNAJwMffSFUeDuScRlp7afiPW0cEWmXA== =jhmZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 12:04:25 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 12:04:42 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Immediacy of fetchmail In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > You can also do it on the client, but indirectly. > > On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like fetchmail. This > handles the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting tool, like procmail, which > calls spamassassin as a part of the process, then finally Alpine. > > But you loose the immediacy of imap. ??? fetchmail can use imap's IDLE. I use it to feed emails into exim, and see emails immediately in a running alpine session. xbiff watching the fetchmail log also shows new mails immediately. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 13:07:49 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Lucio Chiappetti via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 13:08:02 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like fetchmail. This > handles the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting tool, like procmail, which > calls spamassassin as a part of the process, then finally Alpine. Yes, I sort of second this approach. But there may be caveats. > But you loose the immediacy of imap. True. I have a ~5 min delay (the time interval between my fetchmail runs, controlled bu crontab). What you gain is that e-mail is stored forever on your local machine, and not on anybody else's computer. Of course you can't access the mail on the local computer from another computer unless: - you ssh onto your local computer and run alpine there (what I do now) - you run a local IMAP server (I did it long ago when travelling) I precise the "sort of" and caveats above. ------ In the past (quite som years ago) my institution managed its own sendmail on a server. This might deliver to the user local machine. We had spamassassin on the server, trained on our ham-and-spam message base. We had also a daily crontab warning each user about quarantined messages (we had global quarantine, not user's spam directories). I also had procmail privately on my machine, with a further tier of spam filters (and also sorting-in-folders-per-subject). We had very few false negatives and false positives. I mean I received very few true spam, and almost never had to recover good messages marked incorrectly as spam in the quarantine. ------ Then my institution moved to Gsuite (gmail). I arranged fetchmail to get my Gsuite inbox (then it was easy, today is not so easy) every 5 min, so I could run all my procmail filters, sorting by subject etc. For Gsuite Spam folder I instructed alpine to (then easy) to access it, which I did once per day. I found a bit more false positives (good messages marked as spam by the wondeful Google filters). At the time what I did was then to use the Gsuite web interface and tag the messages as "not spam". I hoped that would uinstuct the filters, but this is NOT the cass. so I gave up. Now if I find a false positive in Gsuite Spam folder when looking at it with alpine, I just save (mov) it to my local inbox. ------ Recent complication with Gsuite. They disabled support to "less secure apps" (they call fetchmail or alpine so, apparently because of refusal to pay a bribe, to say it in a politically uncorrect way), forced 2FA and/or OAUTH2, etc. There are two ways to overcome that: - one is to use an "app password" (different from the normal user personal password) for alpine and fetchmail - another one is to instruct Gsuite to forward all mail (not marked as spam) to as third provider, which is more firendly to alpine and fetchmail I tried both and finally arranged for a mixture. Now I have 5 (or 6) destinations (or transit points). 0) all my local folders with old mail (used by alpine) 1) my local INBOX (populated by procmail/fetchmail and used by alpine) 2) an incoming folder (Gsuite INBOX accessible by alpine via app password). Normally entirely empty because mail is either good and delivered nearly instantly to third party, or pseudo-spam (see 4 below) 3) an incoming folder (third party INBOX accessible by alpine and fetchmail). Good messages (for both Gsuite and third party filters) remain thetre transiently, no more than 5 min, after which they are fetched to 1. I can occasionally see them by alpine while transiting (e.g. for "access confirmation" messages). if i'm in real hurry to see them. 4) a folder collection corresponding to all Gsuite folders except the INBOX. What is not empty there for me are Spam and Bin. Once per day I access them, purge Bin and retrieve the rare false positives (incorrectly marked as Spam). Manually in alpine. 5) a folder collection corresponding to all third party folders. What used to be non-empty there was the third party Spam folder, which, since the main spam filtering had already occurred in Gsuite, contained only some false positives. I got fed up to use the third party web interface to tell they are "not spam" (they would be moved to 3 and fetched automatically, but this does not instruct the filters), so I arranged fetchmail to fetch the Sapm folder as well as 3 every 5 min. So in general one should not trust providers' spam filters (they are good in filtering spam but have too many false positives, and cannot be trained). In principle a good approach is therefore to use fetchmail to get both the provider and spam folder and run one's own spam filtering (just procmail, or procmail+spamassassin). In my situation I have no need to run a personal spamassassin. In practice using the approach above with gmail and fetchmail requirs to overcome two problems. One is to use app password, the other is to find the syntax fpr gmail Spam folders (their implementation is quite non-standard). Never tackled the latter, but should be doable somehow. Curiosity: with respect to the time we ran our own spamassassin, Gsuite has more false positives, while a number of real spam which was quarantined by our own spamassassin are nowhere to be seen. I suspect they are filtered out in a more drastic manner. -- The Great Dumbening(tm) started the day smartphone internet traffic overtook that of desktop PCs. (user moonbat on https://forum.palemoon.org 12 Aug 2024 04:21) From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 14:36:28 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Karen Lewellen via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 14:36:31 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi Carlos, Thanks for the details. Immediacy is quite personally and professional critical for me, so I have no desire to download. Will simply have to keep tabs on this one sender. Best, Karen On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday, 2024-11-28 at 16:15 +0100, Rob Wolfconf via Alpine-info wrote: >> Dear Karen, > >> > Is the only way to white list in alpine via a spam filtering program? >> >> No. Alpine is IMAP client, not antispam filter. You have to do it on >> the server, probably in the WebUI. Only thing you can do is to create >> filter, which moves all emails from Junk Folder to INBOX as soon as >> you open Junk folder in alpine. > > You can also do it on the client, but indirectly. > > On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like fetchmail. This handles > the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting tool, like procmail, which calls > spamassassin as a part of the process, then finally Alpine. > > But you loose the immediacy of imap. > > - -- Cheers, > Carlos E. R. > (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZ0i5Axwccm9iaW4ubGlz > dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVA1kAn1xvKZ2MGinUJ5W9eudy > 764+3AeNAJwMffSFUeDuScRlp7afiPW0cEWmXA== > =jhmZ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Alpine-info mailing list > Alpine-info@u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info > From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Thu Nov 28 16:25:13 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Andrew C Aitchison via Alpine-info) Date: Thu Nov 28 16:25:25 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28199c53-6cd2-326d-4734-72fef61cb2db@aitchison.me.uk> On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Lucio Chiappetti via Alpine-info wrote: > On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > >> On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like >> fetchmail. This handles the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting >> tool, like procmail, which calls spamassassin as a part of >> the process, then finally Alpine. > > Yes, I sort of second this approach. But there may be > caveats. > >> But you loose the immediacy of imap. > > True. I have a ~5 min delay (the time interval between my > fetchmail runs, controlled bu crontab). fetchmail supports imap IDLE. This does require a separate config and process for each remote server, but by replacing the cron job with a continuous connection I get my messages instantly. The connection can still fail from time to time; I just restart fetchmail. -- Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK andrew@aitchison.me.uk From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Fri Nov 29 03:24:10 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Fri Nov 29 03:24:15 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] Immediacy of fetchmail In-Reply-To: References: <00e88908-aadb-5d58-f4b3-2089b6364881@aitchison.me.uk> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2024-11-28 at 20:04 -0000, Andrew C Aitchison wrote: > On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > >> You can also do it on the client, but indirectly. >> >> On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like fetchmail. This >> handles the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting tool, like procmail, which >> calls spamassassin as a part of the process, then finally Alpine. >> >> But you loose the immediacy of imap. > > ??? > > fetchmail can use imap's IDLE. > I use it to feed emails into exim, and see emails immediately > in a running alpine session. > xbiff watching the fetchmail log also shows new mails immediately. If I remember correctly, it then only handles one account. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCZ0mkWhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVAXUAnjI302sFWGMleVvKvVA/ luY3IDfGAJ4gOfMzBxCs92AbdqRw2VCAa924SA== =LRzu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From alpine-info at u.washington.edu Fri Nov 29 03:36:00 2024 From: alpine-info at u.washington.edu (Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info) Date: Fri Nov 29 03:36:08 2024 Subject: [Alpine-info] alpine and whitelisting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7450aed1-a8e5-4940-93c5-e002e2fbdc72@telefonica.net> On 2024-11-28 22:07, Lucio Chiappetti via Alpine-info wrote: > On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Carlos E. R. via Alpine-info wrote: > >> On Linux, you can use a tool to download email, like fetchmail. This >> handles the mail to an MTA, this to a sorting tool, like procmail, >> which calls spamassassin as a part of the process, then finally Alpine. > > ? Yes, I sort of second this approach. But there may be caveats. > >> But you loose the immediacy of imap. > > ? True. I have a ~5 min delay (the time interval between my fetchmail > ? runs, controlled bu crontab). What you gain is that e-mail is stored > ? forever on your local machine, and not on anybody else's computer. > > ? Of course you can't access the mail on the local computer from another > ? computer unless: > > ? - you ssh onto your local computer and run alpine there (what I do now) > > ? - you run a local IMAP server (I did it long ago when travelling) Or you copy email to your computer, leaving it in the server. I used the fetchmail approach in the past, but it is important to me to be able to read email in at least two computers. > > I precise the "sort of" and caveats above. > > ------ > > In the past (quite som years ago) my institution managed its own > sendmail on a server. This might deliver to the user local machine. We > had spamassassin on the server, trained on our ham-and-spam message > base. We had also a daily crontab warning each user about quarantined > messages (we had global quarantine, not user's spam directories). > > I also had procmail privately on my machine, with a further tier of spam > filters (and also sorting-in-folders-per-subject). > > We had very few false negatives and false positives. I mean I received > very few true spam, and almost never had to recover good messages marked > incorrectly as spam in the quarantine. > > ------ > Then my institution moved to Gsuite (gmail). > > I arranged fetchmail to get my Gsuite inbox (then it was easy, today is > not so easy) every 5 min, so I could run all my procmail filters, > sorting by subject etc. > > For Gsuite Spam folder I instructed alpine to (then easy) to access it, > which I did once per day. I found a bit more false positives (good > messages marked as spam by the wondeful Google filters). At the time > what I did was then to use the Gsuite web interface and tag the messages > as "not spam". I hoped that would uinstuct the filters, but this is NOT > the cass. so I gave up. Now if I find a false positive in? Gsuite Spam > folder when looking at it with alpine, I just save (mov) it to my local > inbox. > > ------ > Recent complication with Gsuite. > > They disabled support to "less secure apps" (they call fetchmail or > alpine so, apparently because of refusal to pay a bribe, to say it in a > politically uncorrect way), forced 2FA and/or OAUTH2, etc. > > There are two ways to overcome that: > > ?- one is to use an "app password" (different from the normal user > ?? personal password) for alpine and fetchmail That's what I do. ... many nuances. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.5 x86_64 at Telcontar) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 209 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: