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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I hadn't been paying close enough attention to the list to realize that I could now get Alpine to work with my university's Exchange server. So I followed the instructions, got the token for Microsoft, successfully
authenticated—and hit a window saying "Administrator approval required" with a form for me to submit a justification for allowing Alpine to access my account. So I guess someone somewhere in my university's IT division might or might be getting a request and
might or might not do anything about it. Just when the technical hurdle is solved, a social/political hurdle crops up.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">I'll file a help desk ticket in a few days if I don't hear anything and maybe let the list know how it goes—in particular, if the request is denied and what the reasoning might be in that case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">David S.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;color:black">David Sewell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Manager of Digital Initiatives and the Rotunda Imprint<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;color:black">The University of Virginia Press<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Email: dsewell@virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Alpine-info <alpine-info-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu> on behalf of Eduardo Chappa <alpine.chappa@yandex.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 9:06 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Andrew C Aitchison <andrew@aitchison.me.uk>, "alpine-info@u.washington.edu" <alpine-info@u.washington.edu><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Alpine-info] O365 XOAUTH2 via fetchmail<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Andrew C Aitchison wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in" id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
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<p class="MsoNormal">OAUTH2 support has been has been in the contrib section of fetchmail 7
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">for at least 4 years. On Saturday (16 April 2022) Matthias Andree, the
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">fetchmail maintainer, wrote <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://sourceforge.net/p/fetchmail/mailman/fetchmail-users/?viewmonth=202204&viewday=16">https://sourceforge.net/p/fetchmail/mailman/fetchmail-users/?viewmonth=202204&viewday=16</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> So if the abomination of hundreds of pages of a "standard" just for<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> authentication by itself does NOT suffice to implement OAuth2, then<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> we should probably leave it out and remove the experimental bits that<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> are in fetchmail's code before a release, even from contrib, and<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> replace them with a document README.OAuth2 that starts with "why does<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> fetchmail not implement OAuth2".<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Or else somebody show me to a mail service that is not just some SOHO<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> site and that *does* implement OAuth2 without requiring jumping<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> through arbitrary hoops and showing dressage tricks or play sit up<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> and beg or something, then we can implement it and document "why you<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> cannot use OAuth2 with Google" instead.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">so I fear that the reluctance to support OAUTH2 has not gone away :-(<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This worries me because fetchmail, mutt, alpine, etc. are all in the same
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">boat. Our survival partly depends on the existence of our competitors,
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">because having a mutt user access a server tells administrators to take
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">care of a need that later might come from an Alpine user, and so having a
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">bunch of programs that need access to user data, that respect privacy and
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">security helps all of us.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">In addition, we (mutt, fetchmail, alpine, etc.) all have to move to
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">modernize our clients, and this is one of the ways in which we have to do
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">it. There are other steps that need to be taken to modernize Alpine that
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">need to be done, which will come later. I accept that IMAP and SMTP access
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">will be gone from some of my accounts but I still need access to that data
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">through Alpine, so lots of work still remains to be done for that to
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">happen and what I hope is that other clients (mutt, fetchmail, etc.) will
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">do the same. Alpine has a robust library to access remote mailboxes and
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">lacks support for some modern access methods. I am working on bringing
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">those to Alpine too, and I hope people will realize that we might have to
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">leave IMAP and SMTP behind some day too, and that that's okay, because we
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">will still have everything we had in the past without these protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">We are not there yet. We still live in the world of IMAP and SMTP, but it
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">is starting to go away with companies like Google and Microsoft pushing
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">their products and methods and restricting access to their services to
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">competitors like Alpine for reasons of privacy and security concerns. We
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">have to be ready and we will be ready. We will get there, and I hope that
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">other developers like those of Mutt and Fetchmail realize about this now
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">so we can all continue coexisting when the world (or Google and Microsoft)
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">have turned the page on IMAP and SMTP and they do not support these
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">protocols anymore.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Eduardo<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Alpine-info mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:Alpine-info@u.washington.edu">Alpine-info@u.washington.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info">http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/alpine-info</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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