[Athen] Epub Format in Google Docs

[Lisa Brandt]

I think we should all probably be cutting and pasting these messages into  
Google's "Send Feedback" form. <smile>

Lisa

On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 09:40:51 -0800, Samantha Johns <samanj at pdx.edu> wrote:


> Hello,

>

> Math is a complex area for me, but I do think that any authoring  

> software should be robust and include all accessibility conventions.  

> This is especially important for >Universal Design as applies to  

> Instructors, Librarians, and many others authoring content digitally.  

> Most people will not take the time to do an unreasonable amount >of  

> steps while authoring material, the more developers build and code for  

> accessibility the better.

> Have a great day,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Samantha Johns

>

> Accessibility & Course Support Specialist

> Portland State University

> 1825 SW Broadway

> Smith Memorial Student Union, Mezzanine 209

> Portland OR 97201

> (503) 725-2754

>

>

>

>

>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Emma Cliffe <E.H.Cliffe at bath.ac.uk>  

>> wrote:

>>

>> Hello,

>>

>> I am not sure what this has to do with MathType? I typed (and edited  

>> via keyboard) the equations directly in the Google Doc (document, not  

>> presentation) via the >>web interface and using the inbuilt equation  

>> editor. This uses a LaTeX type structured format - similar to typing  

>> equations directly into a Word document. Hence I >>know that the  

>> document contains the structure of the equation - it is rendered  

>> directly so there is almost certainly a mark up language involved  

>> somewhere.

>> In fact we can confirm this as the export mechanism for docx format  

>> from Google Docs produces OMML and so the equations are preserved in  

>> docx. Since OMML >>can be transformed to MathML via stylesheets they do  

>> effectively have the MathML but have chosen not to insert this into the  

>> EPub. They also have the LaTeX like >>linear format I typed which they  

>> have chosen not to retain in the document to preserve the equation and  

>> which they have chosen not to insert as an alt tag where >>they are  

>> generating images. The images which are generated could have been SVG  

>> which would at least have scaled well.

>> The reasons I care:

>> * I think it is reasonable to expect that text content (equations are  

>> text!) I type into a document is not thrown away without warning when I  

>> export that document to >>another format (I would expect to see the  

>> linear format even in the .txt export - why not?). These types of lossy  

>> conversions are how we end up with incomplete, >>inaccessible, poor  

>> quality or unusable scientific or mathematical documents in the first  

>> place. Maths students and staff I work with certainly see equations as  

>> text, >>particularly if they typed the equation, and they expect tools,  

>> conversions, exports etc. to work with them as if they were text.

>> * As Lisa said, if Google using EPub builds widespread buy in or helps  

>> to then I would like that buy in to include scientific and mathematical  

>> content and the tools >>to appropriately create and render it well for  

>> all. This sort of poor quality output is more likely to build the idea  

>> that EPub is not suitable for this content when in fact >>it is.

>> * Students use Google docs to collaborate on documents including  

>> scientific and mathematical content. This may not be sensible but it  

>> tends to happen (I have >>done this myself and then wished I could get  

>> anything which wasn't docx out of it). They sometimes then ask how they  

>> might export that document for their own >>purposes afterwards. Since  

>> all the export formats except docx currently throw away equation  

>> content I had hoped that EPub would provide another option. Now I  

>> >>know I should advise them that they must store and use docx and then  

>> do any transforms they want/need from there. If they are aiming for an  

>> e-book format, for >>whatever reason, this adds extra levels of  

>> conversion and every conversion of mathematical content introduces the  

>> risk of error.

>> I am fully aware of the methods mentioned below and I certainly  

>> wouldn't use Google docs as a formatting engine when creating  

>> accessible documents. However, >>when the document is already in that  

>> format and a student asks how to independently proceed from there it is  

>> helpful to be able to advise appropriately.

>> Best wishes,

>> Emma

>>

>> Mathematics Resource Centre Development Officer

>> University of Bath

>>

>> On 08/03/16 22:40, Wink Harner wrote:

>>>

>>> Hi ATHENITES,

>>>

>>>

>>> Today, I am masquerading as the magic math fairy. Waving my magic  

>>> wand, I'm going to bonk on the Google Docs export to EPUB  

>>> >>>icon.**BING!** Whoops, Math Type equations have to be cut and  

>>> pasted into a Google Docs, at which point they are converted to a  

>>> >>>GIF file, which all of us know "looks nice" but is generally  

>>> inaccessible. Well shoot, I had to put that darn "varela" away.  

>>> Bonking my >>>math wand on Google docs just doesn’t work, doggone it  

>>> all.

>>>

>>> There are a couple of problems in converting to EPUB using Google Docs  

>>> as the formatting engine. First of all there are easier ways to  

>>> >>>create accessible documents and convert to EPUB format – Caliber  

>>> (free) is one among many applications which does a fine job than  

>>> >>>using Google Docs as the formatting engine. Google Docs is a shell  

>>> program which makes you think you are working in Microsoft >>>Word  

>>> when in fact you are not. Which is why MathType doesn't work as  

>>> efficiently or at all in this arena.

>>>

>>> What really confuses me is why any of us are even considering using  

>>> EPUB for math output, when there is such a simple, somewhat >>>direct  

>>> (simple does not equal easy or fast!) route to take: if you want it to  

>>> look nice, leave it alone in the PDF file. If it needs to be in  

>>> >>>text-to-speech, run the PDF through an OCR conversion using Infnty  

>>> OCR software for the math & either Abbyy Fine Reader or >>>Omnipage  

>>> for the text portions, save into a Microsoft or a tagged PDF file, and  

>>> for a student who has a reading disability, use the free >>>CAR reader  

>>> from Central Washington University, which renders math nicely in  

>>> text-to-speech. Or for the student who is blind or >>>visually  

>>> impaired, and needs to use a screen reader such as JAWS or NVDA,  

>>> retype using MathType. Or, you can convert to LaTex or >>>Nemeth and  

>>> export to Braille. The CAR text-to-speech reader is not yet available  

>>> in the iDevice world, but it does nicely in the android >>>and the PC  

>>> World, providing a good text-to-speech output while simultaneously  

>>> highlighting the math. This is good learning support >>>for students  

>>> who have reading disabilities.

>>>

>>>

>>> I am really struggling over why we think that every platform ought to  

>>> cover every color, shade, and size of disability. Surely, we have  

>>> >>>learned enough by now to know that you pick the right tool for the  

>>> job, not the other way around.

>>>

>>>

>>> If you're looking at portability, then by all means make the math look  

>>> nice on a small screen. But portability is only applicable as an  

>>> >>>accommodation under certain circumstances, for example, a student  

>>> who cannot carry all of the books without succumbing to a >>>tipping  

>>> factor. Or someone who cannot physically turn the pages would benefit  

>>> from an electronic book format.  

>>>

>>> I have enclosed (below) , a selection from a Google how-to site  

>>> specifically regarding formatting math in Google Docs:

>>>

>>>"There is no built-in equation capability in Google Docs  

>>> Presentations, but you can still use MathType to create equations for  

>>> your >>>presentations.

>>> In MathType, in the Size menu choose Define, and set the font size  

>>> equal to what you're using in Google Docs. Default font size in Google  

>>> >>>Docs presentations is 32pt.In MathType's Preferences menu choose  

>>> Web and GIF Preferences. Leave everything at its default setting  

>>> except in the center section, >>>click to place a checkmark in the box  

>>> next to Smooth edges (anti-aliasing).Create your equation and save it  

>>> to your computer as a GIF image. Use the Save command in the File menu  

>>> for this, being careful to note >>>where on your computer you saved it  

>>> (Desktop is convenient). To save as GIF, when the Save As dialog is  

>>> open, check the Save as type >>>section to make sure it says Graphics  

>>> Interchange Format.In Google Docs, click the Insert Image icon on the  

>>> toolbar (or use the menu command), then click Browse to find the image  

>>> on your >>>computer. When you find it, click Open, then back in the  

>>> Insert Image dialog, click OK.Move the image into position. The size  

>>> of the equation should be about right, but if you do need to resize  

>>> it, drag one of the corners while >>>holding down the Shift key, and  

>>> it will retain the proper proportion of the equation."

>>> Here's the link:  

>>> https://sites.google.com/a/d219.org/pdc/productivity/mathtype

>>>

>>> Note: this method is designed for presentations not necessarily EPUB  

>>> export, but it will not render accessible math in any format. It  

>>> >>>may render math that will fit on an EPUB page, but that only means  

>>> it's portable, not accessible.

>>>

>>> I encourage all of you to please go back to the drawing board and run  

>>> down 1. Who is your student?; 2. What is the student's >>>disability?;  

>>> 3. What is the student's preferred electronic text? (PDF,  

>>> text-to-speech, tagged PDF, LaTex, Nemeth code…; 4. How will >>>they  

>>> access the text? What equipment or technology do they have? Once  

>>> you've answered these questions, the route your format >>>takes will  

>>> become evident. Each one is different, and sadly there is no easy,  

>>> quick solution for any of this.

>>> As always, I am open to input and flogging from the listserv  

>>> (enlightenment) if my information is not correct. I would love to be  

>>> >>>updated if there is in fact a route to math accessibility in Google  

>>> Docs to EPUB.

>>>

>>> Respectfully,

>>>

>>> Wink

>>>

>>> Wink Harner

>>>

>>> Adaptive Technology Consulting & Training

>>>

>>> Alternative Text & Media Production

>>>

>>> The Foreigntype

>>>

>>>

>>> foreigntype at gmail.com

>>>

>>> winkharner1113 at gmail.com

>>>

>>>

>>> (Disclaimer: this email was dictated with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.  

>>> Please forgive any quirks, mis-recognitions, or omissions.)

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> From: athen-list  

>>> [mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman13.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of  

>>> Lisa Brandt

>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 1:00 PM

>>> To: Access Technology Higher Education Network; Samantha Johns

>>> Subject: Re: [Athen] Epub Format in Google Docs

>>>

>>>

>>> Darn, the math issues are indeed disappointing. I hope they'll make  

>>> that a priority.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 12:49:22 -0800, Samantha Johns <samanj at pdx.edu>  

>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Hello,

>>>>

>>>> Thank you Lisa for pointing that this could bring more attention to  

>>>> this format. And thank you Emma, yes I agree this may not support  

>>>> >>>>math equations.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> I did test that if you format the Doc in Google with Heading, and Alt  

>>>> text for image, then export to Epub it does retain formatting and  

>>>> >>>>read the Alt Text. So that's a plus!

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Samantha Johns

>>>>

>>>> Accessibility & Course Support Specialist

>>>> Portland State University

>>>>

>>>> 1825 SW Broadway

>>>>

>>>> Smith Memorial Student Union, Mezzanine 209

>>>> Portland OR 97201

>>>> (503) 725-2754

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Emma Cliffe <E.H.Cliffe at bath.ac.uk>  

>>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>>>>> Hello,

>>>>

>>>> Just a quick note since I was curious and had a look: I don't have  

>>>> full test software here at home but from what I could see from  

>>>> >>>>unzipping the EPub and looking at the source code the equations  

>>>> are stored as images (png) and are included in the EPub without  

>>>> >>>>alternative text. This means that the images won't scale well  

>>>> (may also align badly and will reflow badly) and there is nothing to  

>>>> be read >>>>aloud.

>>>> This is about as far away from good practice as they can get (MathML  

>>>> with SVG and MathSpeak fallback in EPub3  

>>>> http://www.idpf.org/>>>>accessibility/guidelines/content/mathml/desc.php).  

>>>> I didn't try anything beyond that... I would be wondering about other  

>>>> more complex >>>>structural elements though.

>>>> Best wishes,

>>>> Emma Cliffe

>>>>

>>>> Mathematics Resource Centre Development Officer

>>>> University of Bath

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On 08/03/16 17:04, Samantha Johns wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>> Hello Athen Community,  

>>>>>

>>>>> As of recently it looks like Google Docs now has the option to  

>>>>> export to Epub format. I am wondering what people think >>>>>about  

>>>>> the benefits of this and recommendations?

>>>>>

>>>>> Have a great day!

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Samantha Johns

>>>>>

>>>>> Accessibility & Course Support Specialist

>>>>> Portland State University

>>>>>

>>>>> 1825 SW Broadway

>>>>>

>>>>> Smith Memorial Student Union, Mezzanine 209

>>>>> Portland OR 97201

>>>>> (503) 725-2754

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>

>>>>--

>>>>

>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> athen-list mailing list

>>>> athen-list at mailman13.u.washington.edu

>>>> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list

>>>>

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>>>> --

>>>

>>> --

>>> Lisa Brandt, PCC Disability Services

>>> Accessibility Technician

>>> Alternate Media Formats Technician

>>> SE SCOMM 112 | SY CC 260

>>>

>>> Assistive Technology Support and Appointments:

>>> access-tech-group at pcc.edu

>>> 971-722-TECH (971-722-8324)

>>

>> --

>>

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> athen-list mailing list

>> athen-list at mailman13.u.washington.edu

>> http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list

>>

>




-- 
Lisa Brandt, PCC Disability Services
Accessibility Technician
Alternate Media Formats Technician
SE SCOMM 112 | SY CC 260

Assistive Technology Support and Appointments:
access-tech-group at pcc.edu
971-722-TECH (971-722-8324)
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