From armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu Fri May 5 16:38:08 2023 From: armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu (Deborah Armstrong) Date: Fri May 5 16:38:13 2023 Subject: [Athen] Seeking a training video on adobe sign Message-ID: Our campus is filled with inaccessible Adobe sign forms. I don't know anything about this technology and wonder if anyone knows about where to locate hopefully free training videos that show how to convert a paper form to an accessible fillable Adobe sign form. I need to share these with co-workers, because I don't wish to complain about a problem without having a solution. --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lgreco at berkeley.edu Mon May 8 10:57:18 2023 From: lgreco at berkeley.edu (Lucy GRECO) Date: Mon May 8 10:57:58 2023 Subject: [Athen] Seeking a training video on adobe sign In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hello have never found an accessible form in that platform docusign is much better at creating accessible signing expereonces Berkeley IT Lucy Greco, Web Accessibility Evangelist Campus IT Experience Phone: (510) 289-6008 | Email: lgreco@berkeley.edu | https://dap.berkeley.edu Follow me on twitter @accessaces We champion diversity. We act with integrity. We deliver. We innovate. On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:38?PM Deborah Armstrong wrote: > Our campus is filled with inaccessible Adobe sign forms. > > I don?t know anything about this technology and wonder if anyone knows > about where to locate hopefully free training videos that show how to > convert a paper form to an accessible fillable Adobe sign form. > > I need to share these with co-workers, because I don?t wish to complain > about a problem without having a solution. > > --Debee > > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at noat.ca Tue May 9 05:30:00 2023 From: info at noat.ca (Network of Assistive Technologists) Date: Tue May 9 05:32:03 2023 Subject: [Athen] Otter Is Coming To N.O.A.T. - You ought not miss this one - Otter For Education - Friday, May 12, 2023 @ 2pm Eastern Message-ID: *Otter is coming to N.O.A.T. - Friday, May 12, 2023 @ 2pm Eastern* *The Network of Assistive Technologists welcomes Brooke Williams from Otter* The presentation will focus around topics including goals of higher education students and how that ties in directly with the history of why Otter was founded. We'll share a demonstration about 30 minutes in length - which will draw connections to Otter's purpose as a company to helping the end user learn and access information in the academic setting. In this case, the end user is students and faculty/administration, so I hope to share specific examples and stories from our other customers to frame specific feature benefits. Questions are always welcome throughout, too! I'll pause many times to allow for questions but proactively asking at any point during the presentation works too. *LEARNING OUTCOMES*We hope to impart a sense of knowledge about Otter, and to empower the NOAT audience to view Otter as a resource for themselves and their students. My personal goal is to provide enough relevant context on Otter so that the NOAT community can imagine ways in which their own end users can benefit from not only the current state of Otter, but the future state and where Otter is heading as a technology. *Registration is now open - Save your spot and we will see you Friday, May 12th at 2pm Eastern.* *Doug Mantle,* Founder | The Network of Assistive Technologists www.NOAT.ca | info@NOAT.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gian at accessibilityoz.com Tue May 9 23:26:29 2023 From: gian at accessibilityoz.com (Gian Wild) Date: Tue May 9 23:26:38 2023 Subject: [Athen] MathType, MyMathLab, MyOpenMath Message-ID: Hi ATHEN! I was wondering if anyone here knew where I could get some detailed information on the accessibility of products such as MathType, MyMathLab and MyOpenMath. I'm also interested if your organization has decided that these are accessible or if they have developed an EEAAP instead. If they have developed an EEAAP, what kind of alternatives have you been providing? Thanks for all and any help you can provide! Cheers Gian Gian Wild, CEO AccessibilityOz Company Twitter: @accessibilityoz Twitter: @gian - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gianwild/ Products: OzART: our fully accessible automated testing tool OzPlayer: our fully accessible video player OzWiki: our database of accessibility errors, examples and solutions -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From M.Deeprose at soton.ac.uk Wed May 10 03:27:46 2023 From: M.Deeprose at soton.ac.uk (Matthew Deeprose) Date: Wed May 10 03:27:52 2023 Subject: [Athen] =?windows-1252?q?International_Ally_User_Group_=96_25_May?= =?windows-1252?q?_2023?= Message-ID: [With apologies for cross-posting] Want to learn how one university has introduced an innovative course accessibility service? Do you have questions about alternative text that you wish you could ask an expert? Join us on Thursday 25 May 2023 07:00 PDT / 10:00 EDT / 15:00 BST/ 16:00 CEST / 17:00 TRT / 18:00 GST at the International Ally Group! Session synopses Establishing a Course Accessibility Service. Sara Preston, eLearning Team Lead, Maija Koukkari, eLearning Adviser, Laura Forero, eLearning Support Assistant, Jack Murray-Bird, eLearning Support Assistant, University of Aberdeen. In this session, the team from the University of Aberdeen will share how they established a Course Accessibility Service, inspired by similar initiatives at other Universities, and reflect on the experience gained from piloting the service. The Course Accessibility Service is designed to support teaching teams to improve the accessibility of digital learning materials and continues to be delivered by current students employed as eLearning Support Assistants. Ask me anything about alternative text! With Huw Alexander, textbox How do we write good alternative text for the images we use in Education? Huw Alexander is an alt text expert who writes image descriptions and alt-text for publishers, art galleries, universities, search engines and audiobooks. Join our latest ?Ask me anything? and ask an expert your questions about alternative text. You can send in your questions in advance using the sign-up form. Find sign-up and joining details on the Ally Community site: https://usergroup.ally.ac/content/perma?id=58754 Take care Matthew Deeprose University of Southampton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aneesha.aslam at glean.co Wed May 10 06:22:55 2023 From: aneesha.aslam at glean.co (Aneesha Aslam) Date: Wed May 10 06:23:10 2023 Subject: [Athen] Start planning for the Fall semester and get note taking support crossed off the list Message-ID: As we gear up for the Fall season, we know that budget allocation is top of mind for many. That's why we wanted to highlight how you can support your students with their note taking needs and promote independent learning! The start of the Fall semester can be overwhelming, especially with an influx of new students. That's why this is a great opportunity to get ahead of the game and get note taking support crossed off the list ASAP! *Find out more information here -* Get note taking support crossed off the list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerscher at montana.com Thu May 11 13:55:16 2023 From: kerscher at montana.com (kerscher@montana.com) Date: Thu May 11 13:55:30 2023 Subject: [Athen] Library training module on accessibility Message-ID: <000b01d9844a$e88e3360$b9aa9a20$@montana.com> Dear Higher Education Community, Sorry for cross posting. For those of you with contacts in your library, I suggest you forward this to them. It is an accessibility training module designed for librarians funded by the Institute for Museum and Library Services (IMLS). The librarians will know IMLS very well! In addition, I suggest you look at this for its applicability for training of DSO staff. It covers a lot of the basics about print disabilities and how persons with disabilities access digital information. It goes into detail about Assistive Technology on all platforms for all disability groups. If anybody has comments or suggestions, they are most welcome. It will undergo a revision in the next few months; we have already received comments, and if you get them in soon, the improvements may be integrated. *** We are looking for people to pilot the Reading for Accessibility training module for library staff that we created with funding from the IMLS. If you could forward to your staff and/or any other communication channels you utilize that target library staff that would be helpful. The audience is any library staff person who interacts with patrons. The module can be found on the Reading for Accessibility Page , and we ask that people who review it fill out a brief feedback survey. If there ay questions, you can direct them to me. Best George George Kerscher Ph.D. -In our Information Age, access to information is a fundamental human right. Chief Innovations Officer, DAISY Consortium http://www.daisy.org Senior Advisor, Global Literacy, Benetech http://www.benetech.org President, International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF) http://www.idpf.org Chair Steering Council Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI), at W3C http://www.w3.org/WAI Phone: +1 406/549-4687 Cell:+1 406/544-2466 Email: kerscher@montana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 67127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kerscher at montana.com Thu May 11 19:45:26 2023 From: kerscher at montana.com (kerscher@montana.com) Date: Thu May 11 19:45:31 2023 Subject: [Athen] Better link to library accessibility training module Message-ID: <002101d9847b$cf51d1f0$6df575d0$@montana.com> Hello, It seems that some folks had problems with the link to the library training module on accessibility. This should work: https://libguides.ctstatelibrary.org/dld/ReadingForAccessibility Best George George Kerscher Ph.D. -In our Information Age, access to information is a fundamental human right. Chief Innovations Officer, DAISY Consortium http://www.daisy.org Senior Advisor, Global Literacy, Benetech http://www.benetech.org President, International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF) http://www.idpf.org Chair Steering Council Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI), at W3C http://www.w3.org/WAI Phone: +1 406/549-4687 Cell:+1 406/544-2466 Email: kerscher@montana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 67127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Shaun.Hegney at sfcc.spokane.edu Mon May 15 12:17:23 2023 From: Shaun.Hegney at sfcc.spokane.edu (Hegney, Shaun) Date: Mon May 15 12:17:28 2023 Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader Message-ID: Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I've been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I'm just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn't enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smniles at ucdavis.edu Mon May 15 12:28:54 2023 From: smniles at ucdavis.edu (Sebastian M Niles) Date: Mon May 15 12:28:59 2023 Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the past, I've used Nuance's Omnipage. It works similar to ABBYY. Sebastian Niles, CPACC (he/him/his) Accessible Technology Assistant Student Disability Center University of California-Davis Davis, CA 95616 ________________________________ From: athen-list on behalf of Hegney, Shaun Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 12:17 PM To: athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I?ve been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I?m just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn?t enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smniles at ucdavis.edu Mon May 15 12:28:54 2023 From: smniles at ucdavis.edu (Sebastian M Niles) Date: Mon May 15 12:29:02 2023 Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the past, I've used Nuance's Omnipage. It works similar to ABBYY. Sebastian Niles, CPACC (he/him/his) Accessible Technology Assistant Student Disability Center University of California-Davis Davis, CA 95616 ________________________________ From: athen-list on behalf of Hegney, Shaun Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 12:17 PM To: athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I?ve been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I?m just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn?t enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foreigntype at gmail.com Mon May 15 12:55:49 2023 From: foreigntype at gmail.com (foreigntype@gmail.com) Date: Mon May 15 12:56:30 2023 Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OmnipagePro is one of three OCR software packages in my toolbox for alt-text conversion. OmnipagePro and ABBYY FineReader are not interchangeable. AbbyyFR does a better job with text-based subject matter conversions and foreign languages while OPP is my choice for science and figures-based texts. Too bad AFR went to a subscription based product. They'll likely lose more customers. Wink Harner Accessibility Consultant/Alternative Text Production The Foreign Type Portland OR foreigntype@gmail.com 480-984-0034 This email was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive quirks, misrecognitions, or errata . On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 12:17?PM Hegney, Shaun < Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu> wrote: > Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I?ve been > looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I?m just > curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR > isn?t enough. > > > > Thank you all, > > > > Shaun H > > SFCC > > > > *Shaun Hegney *(He / Him) > > *Program Specialist 2* > > Disability Access Services > > Spokane Falls Community College > > P: (509).533.3544 > > E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu > > > > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rbeach at KCKCC.EDU Tue May 16 05:35:22 2023 From: rbeach at KCKCC.EDU (Robert Beach) Date: Tue May 16 05:35:28 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my opinion, Adobe's OCR is never enough. It does a very poor job from my experience. Another option that has always been good is Omni Page Pro. I haven't used it in years, but I still hear good reports. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist - Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list On Behalf Of Hegney, Shaun Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 2:17 PM To: athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu Subject: [EXT][Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I've been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I'm just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn't enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu Tue May 16 05:40:14 2023 From: Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu (Susan Kelmer) Date: Tue May 16 05:40:20 2023 Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been using Omnipage for 23 years. I am not a fan of Abbyy, although it does a good job of making a PDF more readable, I am usually not interested in spending time making a PDF accessible. If a PDF is inaccessible, I'm going to be converting to MS Word or HTML instead. Omni works great and has rarely failed me. It also has a "quick convert" function to take the PDF to an ASCII text file within a few seconds, allowing me to jump in and start editing that resulting text file into a really nice Word or HTML file. You don't even have to open Omnipage, the quick convert shows up on your right-click context menu. How to do this is covered in my Alternate Format Production Manual, which I'm happy to share with anyone who sends me an email asking for it (susan.kelmer@colorado.edu). Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image001.png@01D987C1.4471D910] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you've received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Hegney, Shaun Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 1:17 PM To: athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu Subject: [Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I've been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I'm just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn't enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From info at karlencommunications.com Tue May 16 05:54:00 2023 From: info at karlencommunications.com (info@karlencommunications.com) Date: Tue May 16 05:54:09 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601d987f5$7fdd3100$7f979300$@karlencommunications.com> The on-board OCR in Acrobat is horrid! I always recommend using either ABBYY or OmniPage. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 8:35 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In my opinion, Adobe's OCR is never enough. It does a very poor job from my experience. Another option that has always been good is Omni Page Pro. I haven't used it in years, but I still hear good reports. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist - Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Hegney, Shaun Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 2:17 PM To: athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu Subject: [EXT][Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I've been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I'm just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn't enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From K4mccall at outlook.com Tue May 16 06:02:58 2023 From: K4mccall at outlook.com (Karen McCall) Date: Tue May 16 06:03:05 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In-Reply-To: <001601d987f5$7fdd3100$7f979300$@karlencommunications.com> References: <001601d987f5$7fdd3100$7f979300$@karlencommunications.com> Message-ID: Keep in mind that Kofax which now owns OmniPage, also has PowerPDF which is their PDF maker. It is the worst PDF conversion tool out there. PowerPDF thinks everything should be a P tag or a figure tag even is you've created an accessible document to begin with. PowerPDF has regressed since Kofax took it over in 2019. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of info@karlencommunications.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 8:54 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader The on-board OCR in Acrobat is horrid! I always recommend using either ABBYY or OmniPage. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 8:35 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader In my opinion, Adobe's OCR is never enough. It does a very poor job from my experience. Another option that has always been good is Omni Page Pro. I haven't used it in years, but I still hear good reports. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist - Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Hegney, Shaun Sent: Monday, May 15, 2023 2:17 PM To: athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu Subject: [EXT][Athen] alternatives to Abby Fine Reader CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. Hello all, with Abby Fine Reader moving to a subscription model I've been looking for other options to OCR trouble textbooks and documents. I'm just curious what you're using for fixing docs and books where Adobe Pro OCR isn't enough. Thank you all, Shaun H SFCC Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pferrara at aph.org Tue May 16 09:55:53 2023 From: pferrara at aph.org (Paul Ferrara) Date: Tue May 16 09:56:01 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help Message-ID: All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D987F5.BEE116A0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From K4mccall at outlook.com Tue May 16 10:59:53 2023 From: K4mccall at outlook.com (Karen McCall) Date: Tue May 16 10:59:57 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D987FE.AE77A5A0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Tue May 16 12:43:23 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Tue May 16 12:43:29 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000e01d9882e$ad713150$085393f0$@toptechtidbits.com> With your permission Karen we would love to include this information in the next issue of Access Information News . Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: not available URL: From K4mccall at outlook.com Tue May 16 13:18:54 2023 From: K4mccall at outlook.com (Karen McCall) Date: Tue May 16 13:18:59 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <000e01d9882e$ad713150$085393f0$@toptechtidbits.com> References: <000e01d9882e$ad713150$085393f0$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: Yes, please do. It is one of those things that is confusing and is being asked about more frequently. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 3:43 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help With your permission Karen we would love to include this information in the next issue of Access Information News. Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? [Text Description automatically generated with low confidence] Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image002.png@01D98812.1A357480] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Tue May 16 13:38:38 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Tue May 16 13:38:45 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <000e01d9882e$ad713150$085393f0$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: <002f01d98836$64fe4fe0$2efaefa0$@toptechtidbits.com> Will do Karen. Thanks so much for sharing. ? Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 4:19 PM To: enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: RE: [Athen] PDF remediation help Yes, please do. It is one of those things that is confusing and is being asked about more frequently. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 3:43 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help With your permission Karen we would love to include this information in the next issue of Access Information News . Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Shaun.Hegney at sfcc.spokane.edu Tue May 16 16:27:59 2023 From: Shaun.Hegney at sfcc.spokane.edu (Hegney, Shaun) Date: Tue May 16 16:28:03 2023 Subject: [Athen] Abby Fine Reader Alternatives Message-ID: Hi all, sorry for the cross-post. But I'm looking for an alternative product to OCR and convert documents because Abby has moved to a subscription service. Shaun Hegney (He / Him) Program Specialist 2 Disability Access Services Spokane Falls Community College P: (509).533.3544 E: Shaun.Hegney@sfcc.spokane.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pferrara at aph.org Wed May 17 05:31:19 2023 From: pferrara at aph.org (Paul Ferrara) Date: Wed May 17 05:31:26 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D98899.F2FEA9D0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D98899.F2FEA9D0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From K4mccall at outlook.com Wed May 17 06:52:39 2023 From: K4mccall at outlook.com (Karen McCall) Date: Wed May 17 06:52:44 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can't tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can't get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D988A5.4EB81AD0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D988A5.4EB81AD0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: From Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu Wed May 17 07:01:36 2023 From: Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu (Susan Kelmer) Date: Wed May 17 07:01:45 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I will add one more comment to this stream... Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to "fix" a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I'll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don't know what elements are being missed, what elements haven't been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to "fix" PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image004.png@01D98895.CBA827C0] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you've received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can't tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can't get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D98895.9D0E6050] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D98895.9D0E6050] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From K4mccall at outlook.com Wed May 17 07:14:05 2023 From: K4mccall at outlook.com (Karen McCall) Date: Wed May 17 07:14:11 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the "Spam" tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn't do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream... Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to "fix" a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I'll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don't know what elements are being missed, what elements haven't been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to "fix" PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image004.png@01D988A8.4D01D7F0] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you've received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can't tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can't get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image005.png@01D988A8.4D01D7F0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image005.png@01D988A8.4D01D7F0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image005.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image006.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image007.jpg URL: From rbeach at KCKCC.EDU Wed May 17 07:25:21 2023 From: rbeach at KCKCC.EDU (Robert Beach) Date: Wed May 17 07:25:32 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I couldn't agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist - Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the "Spam" tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn't do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream... Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to "fix" a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I'll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don't know what elements are being missed, what elements haven't been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to "fix" PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image001.png@01D988A0.E77BB790] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you've received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can't tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can't get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image002.png@01D988A0.E77BB790] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image002.png@01D988A0.E77BB790] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From rspangler1 at udayton.edu Wed May 17 07:28:27 2023 From: rspangler1 at udayton.edu (Robert Spangler) Date: Wed May 17 07:28:43 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I appreciate your bluntness. As a screen reader user, I have attempted simply to edit a PDF before with no success. Even editing is not possible since the screen reader processes the PDF into a virtual buffer. Not to mention, Acrobat Reader and Foxit (particularly Foxit) lag the hell out of JAWS/NVDA, have odd focusing issues, and simply don't work all that well. The most I've been able to do is to combine PDF files, or split a PDF into multiple files and that's only if each section has been tagged so that I can export it. I'd much rather have a text file; although, HTML/Word documents are beneficial because you can add headings and other quick navigation elements. PDFs are just a mess; often when rendered by the screen reader, words are squished together, among other issues. They're simply not a pleasant experience to this day. Thanks, Robert On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:03?AM Susan Kelmer wrote: > I will add one more comment to this stream? > > > > Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, > in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and > attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one > thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this > tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can > sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. > > > > The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first > place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive > remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, > and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. > > > > And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you > are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot > see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t > been done properly, etc. > > > > And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. > They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted > person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no > idea there are missing parts or errors. > > > > I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. > We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format > that works for more people. > > > > *Susan Kelmer * > > Alternate Format Production Program Manager > > Disability Services > > Health and Wellness Services > > *T* 303 735 4836 > > *www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices > * > > > > > > > > *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this > message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message. * > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Karen McCall > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM > *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help > > > > The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell > if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags > are in the logical reading order. > > > > With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of > accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags > and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or > not the elements I mentioned above are in place. > > > > Cheers, Karen > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Paul Ferrara > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM > *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help > > > > Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? > > > > *Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber* > > *Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6* > > American Printing House > > 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 > > Main 502 895 2396 > > pferrara@aph.org > > > > [image: JAWS Certified, 2019] > > > [image: IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] > > > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Karen McCall > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM > *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help > > > > PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader > and has no functional vision. > > > > The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to > what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF > through what gets tagged. > > > > Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been > tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of > content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document > without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a > tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange > them in a logical reading order. > > > > I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I > have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work > without functional vision. > > > > Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after > the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. > > > > The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and > PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. > > > > I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. > > > > Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. > > > > Cheers, Karen > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Paul Ferrara > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM > *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* [Athen] PDF remediation help > > > > All, > > We are looking for any or all of the following: > > 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, > training must work with JAWS. > 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF > documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to > test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, > but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or > recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF > documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. > > > > > > *Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber* > > *Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6* > > American Printing House > > 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 > > Main 502 895 2396 > > pferrara@aph.org > > > > [image: JAWS Certified, 2019] > > > [image: IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] > > > > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > -- Robert Spangler Disability Services Technical Support Specialist Office of Learning Resources Ryan C. Harris Learning Teaching Center (LTC) Roesch Library Room: 023 Phone: 937-229-2066 For Deaf/Hard of Hearing, call 711 (Ohio Relay) For office hours and further OLR information, please visit go.udayton.edu/olr CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information contained in this electronic message is confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail or any of its components is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please "reply" to the sender. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rbeach at KCKCC.EDU Wed May 17 08:01:12 2023 From: rbeach at KCKCC.EDU (Robert Beach) Date: Wed May 17 08:01:24 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What you are describing is what I usually see with PDF?s that have been OCRed by Adobe rather than a good OCR package. I have ABBYY PDF Reader at home and I have been pretty impressed with the results I get without having to do any editing. I have even had it make language adjustments a couple of times as well as adding heading styles. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list On Behalf Of Robert Spangler Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:28 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I appreciate your bluntness. As a screen reader user, I have attempted simply to edit a PDF before with no success. Even editing is not possible since the screen reader processes the PDF into a virtual buffer. Not to mention, Acrobat Reader and Foxit (particularly Foxit) lag the hell out of JAWS/NVDA, have odd focusing issues, and simply don't work all that well. The most I've been able to do is to combine PDF files, or split a PDF into multiple files and that's only if each section has been tagged so that I can export it. I'd much rather have a text file; although, HTML/Word documents are beneficial because you can add headings and other quick navigation elements. PDFs are just a mess; often when rendered by the screen reader, words are squished together, among other issues. They're simply not a pleasant experience to this day. Thanks, Robert On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:03?AM Susan Kelmer > wrote: I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image001.png@01D988A2.D77AD090] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image002.png@01D988A2.D77AD090] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image002.png@01D988A2.D77AD090] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list -- Robert Spangler Disability Services Technical Support Specialist Office of Learning Resources Ryan C. Harris Learning Teaching Center (LTC) Roesch Library Room: 023 Phone: 937-229-2066 For Deaf/Hard of Hearing, call 711 (Ohio Relay) For office hours and further OLR information, please visit go.udayton.edu/olr CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE The information contained in this electronic message is confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail or any of its components is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please "reply" to the sender. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image004.jpg URL: From Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu Wed May 17 08:01:43 2023 From: Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu (Susan Kelmer) Date: Wed May 17 08:01:53 2023 Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not to beat a dead horse, but here's another perspective. I recently spoke at a regional conference in Idaho, and one of the participants rejected the idea that we should take things to text and create Word files. Because her students were used to PDFs, she was spending time "fixing" the PDFs, so that she could give PDFs to students. I asked her why that was so important? "Because they are sighted, and they just have a print disability." My response: "So?" Sighted students can used text-based files like Word or HTML. We are not, as alternate format providers, in the business of creating universally-designed documents. We are in the business of accommodating students. This means our focus is on the student and what output will serve their need. I have two goals when I'm creating alternate format: 1. Good quality text output, and 2. Providing alt format in a timely manner. I'm not fixing PDFs on our campus website - that is not my job. Converting PDFs to good quality text-based documents (Word or HTML) is a fast and easy process. At the end of my day with the group in Idaho, I had convinced this person not to "overdo" things for her student. She realized how much time she would be saving. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image004.png@01D9889E.325F58A0] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you've received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can't tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can't get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D9889D.AFF592D0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I've been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image001.png@01D9889D.AFF592D0] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image003.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: From Chelsea.Hansen2 at colostate.edu Wed May 17 12:59:39 2023 From: Chelsea.Hansen2 at colostate.edu (Hansen,Chelsea) Date: Wed May 17 12:59:47 2023 Subject: [Athen] Codemantra Message-ID: Hello! I'm curious if anyone is using Codemantra for creating accessible materials and if so, whether it was a worthwhile investment for your institution. They've been cold-calling us for the past few months, and I'm not familiar enough with their offerings to know whether the sales pitch is worth the bandwidth it'll take this summer. Thanks, Chelsea Chelsea Hansen, CPACC Administrative Assistant III | she, her, hers [Assistive Technology Resource Center, Colorado State University] Direct: 970-491-0604 | ATRC Office: 970-491-6258 chelsea.hansen2@colostate.edu 317 Occupational Therapy Building | Campus Delivery 1573 Assistive Technology Resource Center Accessibility By Design [cid:image002.png@01D9500B.0BF30AC0] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 13425 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 34548 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Wed May 17 14:51:30 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Wed May 17 14:51:35 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu Wed May 17 14:53:52 2023 From: Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu (Susan Kelmer) Date: Wed May 17 14:53:59 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: No offense, but if it comes from Adobe, it?s going to be the same old same old. They?ve never cared about accessibility. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image001.png@01D988D7.C63CCD80] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 3:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? [Text Description automatically generated with low confidence] Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image001.png@01D988D7.C63CCD80] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image003.png@01D988D7.C63CCD80] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image003.png@01D988D7.C63CCD80] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: image002.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 28653 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Wed May 17 15:08:41 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Wed May 17 15:08:46 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: <005101d9890c$2455dcc0$6d019640$@toptechtidbits.com> None taken. I agree with you. Wholeheartedly. But with AI on the horizon one never knows where the technology might go next. So we like to keep up with all of the latest updates. Just in case. I have no faith in Adobe to do anything differently, but I do have faith that AI can and will change the game entirely at some point. And even Adobe will be unable to ignore that. ? Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:54 PM To: enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help No offense, but if it comes from Adobe, it?s going to be the same old same old. They?ve never cared about accessibility. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 3:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. 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Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 38003 bytes Desc: not available URL: From K4mccall at outlook.com Wed May 17 15:35:22 2023 From: K4mccall at outlook.com (Karen McCall) Date: Wed May 17 15:35:27 2023 Subject: [Athen] Codemantra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen some of their PDFs remediated and am not impressed. As with other large remediation services, the focus seems to be on "access" as opposed to "accessibility". Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Hansen,Chelsea Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 4:00 PM To: athen-list@u.washington.edu Subject: [Athen] Codemantra Hello! I'm curious if anyone is using Codemantra for creating accessible materials and if so, whether it was a worthwhile investment for your institution. They've been cold-calling us for the past few months, and I'm not familiar enough with their offerings to know whether the sales pitch is worth the bandwidth it'll take this summer. Thanks, Chelsea Chelsea Hansen, CPACC Administrative Assistant III | she, her, hers [Assistive Technology Resource Center, Colorado State University] Direct: 970-491-0604 | ATRC Office: 970-491-6258 chelsea.hansen2@colostate.edu 317 Occupational Therapy Building | Campus Delivery 1573 Assistive Technology Resource Center Accessibility By Design [cid:image002.png@01D988EE.54EC3320] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 13425 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 34548 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From chagnon at pubcom.com Wed May 17 23:08:43 2023 From: chagnon at pubcom.com (chagnon@pubcom.com) Date: Wed May 17 23:08:52 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.png Type: image/png Size: 30073 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From derrickf at vt.edu Thu May 18 05:08:55 2023 From: derrickf at vt.edu (Fowles, Derrick) Date: Thu May 18 05:09:04 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> Message-ID: Hello all. We have a new job positing for a counselor position in our office. Please apply if you?re interested in joining our team. Access Specialist Position From: athen-list On Behalf Of chagnon@pubcom.com Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? [Text Description automatically generated with low confidence] Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image002.png@01D9895F.FC056250] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image003.png@01D9895F.FC056250] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image003.png@01D9895F.FC056250] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 30073 bytes Desc: image004.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15116 bytes Desc: image005.jpg URL: From Catherine.Stager at frontrange.edu Thu May 18 12:00:05 2023 From: Catherine.Stager at frontrange.edu (Stager, Catherine) Date: Thu May 18 12:00:09 2023 Subject: [Athen] Happy GAAD! Message-ID: Hi all! I just wanted to say Kudos to all for the work you do to support accessibility and equal access to information! Today is the 12th annual Global Accessibility Day - https://accessibility.day ! Best regards, Cath Catherine M. Stager Assistive Technology Specialist Disability Support Services - Assistive Technology Pronouns: she/her/hers. Leave a message or text Cath (720) 336-1245 [Front Range Community College - Boulder County Campus] Check out our Getting Started Guides for At Home Support! https://bit.ly/usingyourtech Create Inclusive E-mail and Materials https://bit.ly/inclusive_checklist Learn more about pronouns here: https://www.mypronouns.org/what-and-why -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 18481 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Thu May 18 12:09:39 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Thu May 18 12:09:44 2023 Subject: [Athen] Happy GAAD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001301d989bc$4bc13330$e3439990$@toptechtidbits.com> Happy GAAD Catherine! Sincerest thanks to you and everyone else on this list that supports equal access all year long. On behalf of both Top Tech Tidbits and Access Information News, we appreciate you! ? Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Stager, Catherine Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 3:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: [Athen] Happy GAAD! Hi all! I just wanted to say Kudos to all for the work you do to support accessibility and equal access to information! Today is the 12th annual Global Accessibility Day - https://accessibility.day ! Best regards, Cath Catherine M. Stager Assistive Technology Specialist Disability Support Services - Assistive Technology Pronouns: she/her/hers. Leave a message or text Cath (720) 336-1245 Check out our Getting Started Guides for At Home Support! https://bit.ly/usingyourtech Create Inclusive E-mail and Materials https://bit.ly/inclusive_checklist Learn more about pronouns here: https://www.mypronouns.org/what-and-why -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 18481 bytes Desc: not available URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Thu May 18 12:18:35 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Thu May 18 12:19:07 2023 Subject: [Athen] Happy GAAD! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901d989bd$8ae09aa0$a0a1cfe0$@toptechtidbits.com> As I have discussed with some in this thread previously, AI-generated writing is impossible to detect with any reasonable measure of accuracy, no matter what those selling these systems might wish for you to believe. I am a computer engineer with over 30 years of experience in working with large language models of all kinds. It would seem that this hard truth is finally coming to bear. But not without consequences. A Prof Falsely Accused His Class Of Using ChatGPT. Their Diplomas Are In Jeopardy | The Washington Post AI-generated writing is almost impossible to detect and tensions erupting at a Texas university expose the difficulties facing educators. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/05/18/texas-professor-threatened-fail-class-chatgpt-cheating/ Students at Texas A&M University at Commerce were in celebration mode this past weekend, as parents filed into the university?s Field House to watch students donned in cap and gown walk the graduation stage. But for pupils in Jared Mumm?s animal science class, the fun was cut short when they received a heated email Monday afternoon saying that students were in danger of failing the class for using ChatGPT to cheat. ?The final grade for the course is due today at 5 p.m.,? the instructor warned, according to a copy of the note obtained by The Washington Post. ?I will be giving everyone in this course an ?X,'? indicating incomplete. Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Thu May 18 13:42:59 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Thu May 18 13:43:06 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> Message-ID: <004101d989c9$55e47e50$01ad7af0$@toptechtidbits.com> Thanks so much for the feedback Bevi. This article was released by Will Shankin via Engadget on 5/17/23 at 9:00 AM. Not sure where you?re getting that information from. ? Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: chagnon@pubcom.com Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Thu May 18 13:48:53 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Thu May 18 13:48:59 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> Message-ID: <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: chagnon@pubcom.com Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu Thu May 18 13:53:27 2023 From: Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu (Susan Kelmer) Date: Thu May 18 13:53:36 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: To quote from the article: ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that process.? Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. /sarcasm Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image002.png@01D98998.7FCE6F90] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM To: chagnon@pubcom.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? [TextDescription automatically generated with low confidence] Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: chagnon@pubcom.com > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? [TextDescription automatically generated with low confidence] Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices [cid:image002.png@01D98998.7FCE6F90] Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image007.png@01D98998.7FCE6F90] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org [cid:image007.png@01D98998.7FCE6F90] [JAWS Certified, 2019] [IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: image006.jpg URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 3131 bytes Desc: image007.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 30073 bytes Desc: image008.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15116 bytes Desc: image009.jpg URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Thu May 18 13:56:39 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Thu May 18 13:57:00 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: <005d01d989cb$3e7742f0$bb65c8d0$@toptechtidbits.com> Yes. Yes, I think we should definitely tell them. ? Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: Susan Kelmer Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM To: enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help To quote from the article: ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that process.? Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. /sarcasm Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM To: chagnon@pubcom.com ; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: chagnon@pubcom.com > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image005.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15116 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chagnon at pubcom.com Thu May 18 15:45:27 2023 From: chagnon at pubcom.com (chagnon@pubcom.com) Date: Thu May 18 15:46:07 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> Message-ID: <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing the AutoTag feature. It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few years and we still can?t depend on it for much. It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with one heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at the top of the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the default heading tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. Duh. It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time will tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS Office and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after it?s made, but maybe that?s asking too much! ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM To: enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help To quote from the article: ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that process.? Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. /sarcasm Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM To: chagnon@pubcom.com ; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: chagnon@pubcom.com > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Robert Beach Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I couldn?t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from. Robert Lee Beach Assistive Technology Specialist ? Student Accessibility & Support Services Kansas City Kansas Community College 7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112 O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678 rbeach@kckcc.edu From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support@kckcc.edu. I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background. The or what I call the ?Spam? tag is all over the place for no good reason. I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches. I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn?t do that previously. I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help I will add one more comment to this stream? Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible. The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to ?fix? a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document. And I?ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don?t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven?t been done properly, etc. And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors. I continue to be confused by the push to ?fix? PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people. Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can?t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order. With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can?t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in? Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Karen McCall Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision. The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged. Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order. I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision. Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible. The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components. I?ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years. Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network > Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help All, We are looking for any or all of the following: 1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS. 2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you. Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6 American Printing House 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206 Main 502 895 2396 pferrara@aph.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image007.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 15094 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phil at d4k.ca Thu May 18 22:31:57 2023 From: phil at d4k.ca (Philip Kiff) Date: Thu May 18 22:31:39 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> Message-ID: <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) that sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more info. They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at developers, not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has been built into Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by their so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that the AutoTag feature in Acrobat Pro runs? the exact same code as that in their (new?) API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language around the phrase "artificial intelligence", I have the impression that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag feature depends entirely on code run locally on your computer, whereas the AutoTag API will run somewhere in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be similar. Who knows. Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're talking about Bevi? Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a starting point when I am remediating files. But I can see a value in having an API that developers can incorporate into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to automate large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. There are already some other document accessibility companies that offer automated solutions for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I think, so I expect this signals that Adobe has decided to enter into this business market more aggressively. There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone PDF accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag feature in the free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase of the expensive and overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if the accessibility checker will be a new product that checks against a full set of WCAG or PDF/UA criteria to compete with offerings from CommonLook and PAC, or if it will simply be a stand-alone version of the rudimentary Accessibility Check feature currently built into Adobe Acrobat Pro. [1] Media Release: https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx [2] Developer AutoTag API page: https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ [3] Demo Sign Up: https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html Phil. Philip Kiff D4K Communications On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: > > We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing > the AutoTag feature. > > It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few > years and we still can?t depend on it for much. > > It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with > one heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at > the top of the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the > default heading tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. > > Duh. > > It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time will > tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. > > Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS > Office and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after > it?s made, but maybe that?s asking too much! > > *? ? ?* > > Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician*|* > Chagnon@PubCom.com > > *? ? ?* > > *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* > > consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services > > *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* > > > *? ? ?* > > Latest blog-newsletter > ? *Simple > Guide to Writing Alt-Text > * > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Susan Kelmer > *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM > *To:* enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education > Network > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > To quote from the article: > > ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm > spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide > deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% > of that process.? > > Should we tell them?? Should we tell them that had they just created > the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few > minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? > > NINE HOURS??? What the heck were they doing?? Oh yeah, they were using > Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. > > /sarcasm > > *Susan Kelmer * > > Alternate Format Production Program Manager > > Disability Services > > Health and Wellness Services > > *T*303 735 4836 > > *_www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices > _* > > *__* > > *__* > > /Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this > message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error > please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. /// > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits > *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM > *To:* chagnon@pubcom.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: > > Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based > Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c > > *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* > > ** > > Publisher (2020-Present) > > *Top Tech Tidbits* > > The Week's News in Adaptive Technology > > https://toptechtidbits.com ? > > *From:* chagnon@pubcom.com > *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM > *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > > *Cc:* enews@toptechtidbits.com > *Subject:* RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > Hi Aaron, > > I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out > of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. > > Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags > > https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V > > * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe > announced Monday, May 6, 20*_13_*?? and the rest is pure nonsense. > * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. > It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks > at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, > and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and > students how to use it only when there?s no better way to > remediate a bad PDF. > > We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on > the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the > user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for > the future, however. > > I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. > > *? ? ?* > > Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician*|* Chagnon@PubCom.com > > *? ? ?* > > *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* > > consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services > > *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* > > > *? ? ?* > > Latest blog-newsletter > ? *Simple > Guide to Writing Alt-Text > * > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM > *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I > think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF > accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. > > Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags > > https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V > > *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* > > ** > > Publisher (2020-Present) > > *Top Tech Tidbits* > > The Week's News in Adaptive Technology > > https://toptechtidbits.com ? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phil at d4k.ca Fri May 19 05:10:33 2023 From: phil at d4k.ca (Philip Kiff) Date: Fri May 19 05:10:13 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> Message-ID: A couple corrections and a re-interpretation after re-reading things this morning. The media release was from May 17, the day before GAAD, not on May 18. Adobe isn't claiming they are going to release a stand-alone version of the PDF Accessibility Checker . I must have heard that somewhere else, but wherever I heard it, it doesn't sound like that's true based on the media release. I'm not quite sure what the release is saying about the checker - I think Adobe needs someone with clear language training to help write their media releases!: "The PDF Accessibility Checker, available in Acrobat via an API, will enable organizations to quickly and easily evaluate the accessibility of existing PDFs at scale." So the PDF Accessibility Checker will probably also be an API connecting to a cloud-based function? And when you use it in Acrobat, it will use the cloud-based API, instead of running locally on your computer using code run by Acrobat. It's too bad that they are calling it "PDF Accessibility Checker", since that will mean it gets confused with the per-existing free PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool. I guess we'll see. Phil. On 2023-05-19 01:31, Philip Kiff wrote: > > So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) > that sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). > > Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more info. > > They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. > > I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at > developers, not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has > been built into Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. > > Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by > their so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that > the AutoTag feature in Acrobat Pro runs? the exact same code as that > in their (new?) API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language > around the phrase "artificial intelligence", I have the impression > that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag feature depends entirely on code run > locally on your computer, whereas the AutoTag API will run somewhere > in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be similar. Who knows. > > Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're > talking about Bevi? > > Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in > Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a > starting point when I am remediating files. > > But I can see a value in having an API that developers can incorporate > into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to automate > large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. There are > already some other document accessibility companies that offer > automated solutions for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I think, so > I expect this signals that Adobe has decided to enter into this > business market more aggressively. > > There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of > Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone > PDF accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag feature > in the free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase of the > expensive and overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if the > accessibility checker will be a new product that checks against a full > set of WCAG or PDF/UA criteria to compete with offerings from > CommonLook and PAC, or if it will simply be a stand-alone version of > the rudimentary Accessibility Check feature currently built into Adobe > Acrobat Pro. > > [1] Media Release: > https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx > > > [2] Developer AutoTag API page: > https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ > > [3] Demo Sign Up: > https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html > > Phil. > > Philip Kiff > D4K Communications > > On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: >> >> We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing >> the AutoTag feature. >> >> It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few >> years and we still can?t depend on it for much. >> >> It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with >> one heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at >> the top of the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the >> default heading tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. >> >> Duh. >> >> It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time >> will tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. >> >> Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS >> Office and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after >> it?s made, but maybe that?s asking too much! >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician*|* >> Chagnon@PubCom.com >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* >> >> consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services >> >> *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* >> >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Latest blog-newsletter >> ? *Simple >> Guide to Writing Alt-Text >> * >> >> *From:* athen-list >> *On Behalf Of *Susan Kelmer >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM >> *To:* enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education >> Network >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> To quote from the article: >> >> ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm >> spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide >> deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% >> of that process.? >> >> Should we tell them?? Should we tell them that had they just created >> the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few >> minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? >> >> NINE HOURS??? What the heck were they doing?? Oh yeah, they were >> using Adobe to fix an Adobe file.? That works. >> >> /sarcasm >> >> *Susan Kelmer * >> >> Alternate Format Production Program Manager >> >> Disability Services >> >> Health and Wellness Services >> >> *T*303 735 4836 >> >> *_www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices >> _* >> >> *__* >> >> *__* >> >> /Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this >> message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error >> please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. /// >> >> *From:* athen-list >> *On Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM >> *To:* chagnon@pubcom.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education >> Network' >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: >> >> Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based >> Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes >> >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c >> >> *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* >> >> ** >> >> Publisher (2020-Present) >> >> *Top Tech Tidbits* >> >> The Week's News in Adaptive Technology >> >> https://toptechtidbits.com ? >> >> *From:* chagnon@pubcom.com >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM >> *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' >> >> *Cc:* enews@toptechtidbits.com >> *Subject:* RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> Hi Aaron, >> >> I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly >> out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. >> >> Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags >> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V >> >> * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe >> announced Monday, May 6, 20*_13_*?? and the rest is pure nonsense. >> * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few >> years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall >> still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from >> graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our >> clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better >> way to remediate a bad PDF. >> >> We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on >> the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the >> user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for >> the future, however. >> >> I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician*|* >> Chagnon@PubCom.com >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* >> >> consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services >> >> *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* >> >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Latest blog-newsletter >> ? *Simple >> Guide to Writing Alt-Text >> * >> >> *From:* athen-list >> *On Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM >> *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I >> think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF >> accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. >> >> Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags >> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V >> >> *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* >> >> ** >> >> Publisher (2020-Present) >> >> *Top Tech Tidbits* >> >> The Week's News in Adaptive Technology >> >> https://toptechtidbits.com ? >> > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phil at d4k.ca Fri May 19 08:05:14 2023 From: phil at d4k.ca (Philip Kiff) Date: Fri May 19 08:05:40 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> Message-ID: <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> Another quick follow-up on this. I just tested the Demo using a two-page PDF newsletter generated by Canva - which generally produces absolutely horrendous PDF files. And I tested the AutoTag output from my version of Adobe Acrobat Pro and compared it to the output from the Demo API. First thing to note is that I am not given the option of using Adobe Cloud for AutoTag when I attempt to use the AutoTag feature in Adobe Acrobat Pro. I selected not to use the cloud because I want to be able to compare the outputs. Next thing to note is that the output from the AutoTag built in to Acrobat has gotten much better recently. Even just a few months ago, it was not worth my time to start remediating a Canva file with Autotag. But today, the file it output on its own was a good starting point. Comparing the output from Acrobat Pro to the Cloud Demo, I notice a few differences. One significant difference in this file is that the built-in Acrobat Autotag does not correctly tag any annotations (hyperlinks). Whereas the Adobe AutoTag API Demo does a pretty good job of generating proper Link/Reference tags. Also, the AutoTag API Demo actually creates a root tag like it is supposed to, instead of putting everything inside a
tag. I would say that if you have a choice, right now, and you don't mind the loss of privacy/security with uploading files to Adobe, then I would recommend using the AutoTag API Demo instead of using the built-in Adobe Acrobat Autotag feature. Phil. On 2023-05-19 08:10, Philip Kiff wrote: > > A couple corrections and a re-interpretation after re-reading things > this morning. > > The media release was from May 17, the day before GAAD, not on May 18. > > Adobe isn't claiming they are going to release a stand-alone version > of the PDF Accessibility Checker . I must have heard that somewhere > else, but wherever I heard it, it doesn't sound like that's true based > on the media release. I'm not quite sure what the release is saying > about the checker - I think Adobe needs someone with clear language > training to help write their media releases!: > "The PDF Accessibility Checker, available in Acrobat via an API, will > enable organizations to quickly and easily evaluate the accessibility > of existing PDFs at scale." > > So the PDF Accessibility Checker will probably also be an API > connecting to a cloud-based function? And when you use it in Acrobat, > it will use the cloud-based API, instead of running locally on your > computer using code run by Acrobat. It's too bad that they are calling > it "PDF Accessibility Checker", since that will mean it gets confused > with the per-existing free PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool. > > I guess we'll see. > > Phil. > > On 2023-05-19 01:31, Philip Kiff wrote: >> >> So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) >> that sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). >> >> Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more >> info. >> >> They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. >> >> I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at >> developers, not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has >> been built into Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. >> >> Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by >> their so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that >> the AutoTag feature in Acrobat Pro runs? the exact same code as that >> in their (new?) API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language >> around the phrase "artificial intelligence", I have the impression >> that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag feature depends entirely on code run >> locally on your computer, whereas the AutoTag API will run somewhere >> in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be similar. Who knows. >> >> Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're >> talking about Bevi? >> >> Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in >> Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a >> starting point when I am remediating files. >> >> But I can see a value in having an API that developers can >> incorporate into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to >> automate large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. >> There are already some other document accessibility companies that >> offer automated solutions for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I >> think, so I expect this signals that Adobe has decided to enter into >> this business market more aggressively. >> >> There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of >> Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone >> PDF accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag >> feature in the free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase >> of the expensive and overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if >> the accessibility checker will be a new product that checks against a >> full set of WCAG or PDF/UA criteria to compete with offerings from >> CommonLook and PAC, or if it will simply be a stand-alone version of >> the rudimentary Accessibility Check feature currently built into >> Adobe Acrobat Pro. >> >> [1] Media Release: >> https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx >> >> >> [2] Developer AutoTag API page: >> https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ >> >> [3] Demo Sign Up: >> https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html >> >> Phil. >> >> Philip Kiff >> D4K Communications >> >> On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: >>> >>> We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep >>> testing the AutoTag feature. >>> >>> It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a >>> few years and we still can?t depend on it for much. >>> >>> It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with >>> one heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at >>> the top of the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the >>> default heading tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. >>> >>> Duh. >>> >>> It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time >>> will tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. >>> >>> Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS >>> Office and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after >>> it?s made, but maybe that?s asking too much! >>> >>> *? ? ?* >>> >>> Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician*|* >>> Chagnon@PubCom.com >>> >>> *? ? ?* >>> >>> *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* >>> >>> consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services >>> >>> *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* >>> >>> >>> *? ? ?* >>> >>> Latest blog-newsletter >>> ? *Simple >>> Guide to Writing Alt-Text >>> * >>> >>> *From:* athen-list >>> *On Behalf Of *Susan Kelmer >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM >>> *To:* enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education >>> Network >>> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >>> >>> To quote from the article: >>> >>> ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial >>> firm spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation >>> slide deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated >>> 70?80% of that process.? >>> >>> Should we tell them?? Should we tell them that had they just created >>> the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a >>> few minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? >>> >>> NINE HOURS??? What the heck were they doing?? Oh yeah, they were >>> using Adobe to fix an Adobe file.? That works. >>> >>> /sarcasm >>> >>> *Susan Kelmer * >>> >>> Alternate Format Production Program Manager >>> >>> Disability Services >>> >>> Health and Wellness Services >>> >>> *T*303 735 4836 >>> >>> *_www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices >>> _* >>> >>> *__* >>> >>> *__* >>> >>> /Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this >>> message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error >>> please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. /// >>> >>> *From:* athen-list >>> *On Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM >>> *To:* chagnon@pubcom.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education >>> Network' >>> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >>> >>> Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: >>> >>> Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based >>> Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes >>> >>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c >>> >>> *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* >>> >>> ** >>> >>> Publisher (2020-Present) >>> >>> *Top Tech Tidbits* >>> >>> The Week's News in Adaptive Technology >>> >>> https://toptechtidbits.com ? >>> >>> *From:* chagnon@pubcom.com >>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM >>> *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' >>> >>> *Cc:* enews@toptechtidbits.com >>> *Subject:* RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >>> >>> Hi Aaron, >>> >>> I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly >>> out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. >>> >>> Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags >>> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V >>> >>> * The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe >>> announced Monday, May 6, 20*_13_*?? and the rest is pure nonsense. >>> * The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few >>> years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall >>> still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text >>> from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach >>> our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no >>> better way to remediate a bad PDF. >>> >>> We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on >>> the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the >>> user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope >>> for the future, however. >>> >>> I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. >>> >>> *? ? ?* >>> >>> Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician*|* >>> Chagnon@PubCom.com >>> >>> *? ? ?* >>> >>> *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* >>> >>> consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services >>> >>> *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* >>> >>> >>> *? ? ?* >>> >>> Latest blog-newsletter >>> ? *Simple >>> Guide to Writing Alt-Text >>> * >>> >>> *From:* athen-list >>> *On Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM >>> *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >>> >>> Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. >>> I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding >>> PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. >>> >>> Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags >>> >>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V >>> >>> *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* >>> >>> ** >>> >>> Publisher (2020-Present) >>> >>> *Top Tech Tidbits* >>> >>> The Week's News in Adaptive Technology >>> >>> https://toptechtidbits.com ? >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> athen-list mailing list >> athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu >> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phil at d4k.ca Fri May 19 08:09:52 2023 From: phil at d4k.ca (Philip Kiff) Date: Fri May 19 08:09:34 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> Message-ID: Typo: First thing to note is that I am NOW given the option... On 2023-05-19 11:05, Philip Kiff wrote: > First thing to note is that I am not given the option of using Adobe > Cloud for AutoTag when I attempt to use the AutoTag feature in Adobe > Acrobat Pro. I selected not to use the cloud because I want to be able > to compare the outputs. From lgreco at berkeley.edu Thu May 18 11:55:37 2023 From: lgreco at berkeley.edu (Lucy GRECO) Date: Fri May 19 08:32:29 2023 Subject: [Athen] happy global accessibility awareness day 2023 Message-ID: hello to my extended community from the University of Californiaand beyond. for this GAAD i wanted to share a fun video showing the potential of technology to expand accessibility to every one. the AI suecase robot this video shows a research project from IBM japan,i got to play with while at CSUN conference on technology and disability earlier this year. please injoy this fun video. and have an accessible global accessibility awareness year. lucy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Catherine.Stager at frontrange.edu Fri May 19 09:16:35 2023 From: Catherine.Stager at frontrange.edu (Stager, Catherine) Date: Fri May 19 09:16:41 2023 Subject: [Athen] happy global accessibility awareness day 2023 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lucy, I loved hearing about how they were considering two versions that would be marketed ? a shorter one for the Japanese market and a taller one for the USA market. It is very cool tech! Best regards, Cath From: athen-list On Behalf Of Lucy GRECO Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 12:56 PM Subject: [Athen] happy global accessibility awareness day 2023 EXTERNAL MAIL: athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu: Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Please contact your college IT Help Desk if you have any questions hello to my extended community from the University of Californiaand beyond. for this GAAD i wanted to share a fun video showing the potential of technology to expand accessibility to every one. the AI suecase robot this video shows a research project from IBM japan,i got to play with while at CSUN conference on technology and disability earlier this year. please injoy this fun video. and have an accessible global accessibility awareness year. lucy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at karlencommunications.com Fri May 19 09:43:17 2023 From: info at karlencommunications.com (info@karlencommunications.com) Date: Fri May 19 09:43:24 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> Message-ID: <000001d98a71$0428caa0$0c7a5fe0$@karlencommunications.com> I just read a post on LinkedIn by Matt May, the Adobe Accessibility lead. He is not well and taking time to recuperate. Not sure what the status of accessibility is in his absence. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list On Behalf Of Philip Kiff Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 11:05 AM To: athen-list@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Another quick follow-up on this. I just tested the Demo using a two-page PDF newsletter generated by Canva - which generally produces absolutely horrendous PDF files. And I tested the AutoTag output from my version of Adobe Acrobat Pro and compared it to the output from the Demo API. First thing to note is that I am not given the option of using Adobe Cloud for AutoTag when I attempt to use the AutoTag feature in Adobe Acrobat Pro. I selected not to use the cloud because I want to be able to compare the outputs. Next thing to note is that the output from the AutoTag built in to Acrobat has gotten much better recently. Even just a few months ago, it was not worth my time to start remediating a Canva file with Autotag. But today, the file it output on its own was a good starting point. Comparing the output from Acrobat Pro to the Cloud Demo, I notice a few differences. One significant difference in this file is that the built-in Acrobat Autotag does not correctly tag any annotations (hyperlinks). Whereas the Adobe AutoTag API Demo does a pretty good job of generating proper Link/Reference tags. Also, the AutoTag API Demo actually creates a root tag like it is supposed to, instead of putting everything inside a
tag. I would say that if you have a choice, right now, and you don't mind the loss of privacy/security with uploading files to Adobe, then I would recommend using the AutoTag API Demo instead of using the built-in Adobe Acrobat Autotag feature. Phil. On 2023-05-19 08:10, Philip Kiff wrote: A couple corrections and a re-interpretation after re-reading things this morning. The media release was from May 17, the day before GAAD, not on May 18. Adobe isn't claiming they are going to release a stand-alone version of the PDF Accessibility Checker . I must have heard that somewhere else, but wherever I heard it, it doesn't sound like that's true based on the media release. I'm not quite sure what the release is saying about the checker - I think Adobe needs someone with clear language training to help write their media releases!: "The PDF Accessibility Checker, available in Acrobat via an API, will enable organizations to quickly and easily evaluate the accessibility of existing PDFs at scale." So the PDF Accessibility Checker will probably also be an API connecting to a cloud-based function? And when you use it in Acrobat, it will use the cloud-based API, instead of running locally on your computer using code run by Acrobat. It's too bad that they are calling it "PDF Accessibility Checker", since that will mean it gets confused with the per-existing free PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool. I guess we'll see. Phil. On 2023-05-19 01:31, Philip Kiff wrote: So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) that sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more info. They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at developers, not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has been built into Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by their so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that the AutoTag feature in Acrobat Pro runs the exact same code as that in their (new?) API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language around the phrase "artificial intelligence", I have the impression that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag feature depends entirely on code run locally on your computer, whereas the AutoTag API will run somewhere in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be similar. Who knows. Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're talking about Bevi? Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a starting point when I am remediating files. But I can see a value in having an API that developers can incorporate into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to automate large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. There are already some other document accessibility companies that offer automated solutions for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I think, so I expect this signals that Adobe has decided to enter into this business market more aggressively. There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone PDF accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag feature in the free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase of the expensive and overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if the accessibility checker will be a new product that checks against a full set of WCAG or PDF/UA criteria to compete with offerings from CommonLook and PAC, or if it will simply be a stand-alone version of the rudimentary Accessibility Check feature currently built into Adobe Acrobat Pro. [1] Media Release: https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx [2] Developer AutoTag API page: https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ [3] Demo Sign Up: https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html Phil. Philip Kiff D4K Communications On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing the AutoTag feature. It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few years and we still can?t depend on it for much. It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with one heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at the top of the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the default heading tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. Duh. It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time will tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS Office and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after it?s made, but maybe that?s asking too much! ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM To: enews@toptechtidbits.com ; Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help To quote from the article: ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that process.? Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. /sarcasm Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM To: chagnon@pubcom.com ; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? From: chagnon@pubcom.com > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V 1. The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. 2. The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From metzessible at gmail.com Fri May 19 11:25:17 2023 From: metzessible at gmail.com (Metzessible) Date: Fri May 19 11:25:59 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: <000001d98a71$0428caa0$0c7a5fe0$@karlencommunications.com> References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> <000001d98a71$0428caa0$0c7a5fe0$@karlencommunications.com> Message-ID: I think this auto-tag "feature" is specifically intended for use with Adobe Experience Manager, as that's what uses Adobe Sensei the most. They're calling it "Smart Tagging (link: https://business.adobe.com/products/experience-manager/assets/smart-tagging.html). The caption for that photo is for a File photo, so chances are it's in the metadata of the file. I haven't inspected it myself. On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 12:44?PM wrote: > I just read a post on LinkedIn by Matt May, the Adobe Accessibility lead. > He is not well and taking time to recuperate. > > > > Not sure what the status of accessibility is in his absence. > > > > Cheers, Karen > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Philip Kiff > *Sent:* Friday, May 19, 2023 11:05 AM > *To:* athen-list@u.washington.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > > > Another quick follow-up on this. > > I just tested the Demo using a two-page PDF newsletter generated by Canva > - which generally produces absolutely horrendous PDF files. And I tested > the AutoTag output from my version of Adobe Acrobat Pro and compared it to > the output from the Demo API. > > First thing to note is that I am not given the option of using Adobe Cloud > for AutoTag when I attempt to use the AutoTag feature in Adobe Acrobat Pro. > I selected not to use the cloud because I want to be able to compare the > outputs. > > Next thing to note is that the output from the AutoTag built in to Acrobat > has gotten much better recently. Even just a few months ago, it was not > worth my time to start remediating a Canva file with Autotag. But today, > the file it output on its own was a good starting point. > > Comparing the output from Acrobat Pro to the Cloud Demo, I notice a few > differences. One significant difference in this file is that the built-in > Acrobat Autotag does not correctly tag any annotations (hyperlinks). > Whereas the Adobe AutoTag API Demo does a pretty good job of generating > proper Link/Reference tags. Also, the AutoTag API Demo actually creates a > root tag like it is supposed to, instead of putting everything > inside a
tag. > > I would say that if you have a choice, right now, and you don't mind the > loss of privacy/security with uploading files to Adobe, then I would > recommend using the AutoTag API Demo instead of using the built-in Adobe > Acrobat Autotag feature. > > Phil. > > On 2023-05-19 08:10, Philip Kiff wrote: > > A couple corrections and a re-interpretation after re-reading things this > morning. > > The media release was from May 17, the day before GAAD, not on May 18. > > Adobe isn't claiming they are going to release a stand-alone version of > the PDF Accessibility Checker . I must have heard that somewhere else, but > wherever I heard it, it doesn't sound like that's true based on the media > release. I'm not quite sure what the release is saying about the checker - > I think Adobe needs someone with clear language training to help write > their media releases!: > "The PDF Accessibility Checker, available in Acrobat via an API, will > enable organizations to quickly and easily evaluate the accessibility of > existing PDFs at scale." > > So the PDF Accessibility Checker will probably also be an API connecting > to a cloud-based function? And when you use it in Acrobat, it will use the > cloud-based API, instead of running locally on your computer using code run > by Acrobat. It's too bad that they are calling it "PDF Accessibility > Checker", since that will mean it gets confused with the per-existing free > PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool. > > I guess we'll see. > > Phil. > > On 2023-05-19 01:31, Philip Kiff wrote: > > So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) that > sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). > > Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more info. > > They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. > > I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at developers, > not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has been built into > Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. > > Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by their > so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that the AutoTag > feature in Acrobat Pro runs the exact same code as that in their (new?) > API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language around the phrase > "artificial intelligence", I have the impression that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag > feature depends entirely on code run locally on your computer, whereas the > AutoTag API will run somewhere in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be > similar. Who knows. > > Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're > talking about Bevi? > > Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in > Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a starting > point when I am remediating files. > > But I can see a value in having an API that developers can incorporate > into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to automate > large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. There are already > some other document accessibility companies that offer automated solutions > for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I think, so I expect this signals > that Adobe has decided to enter into this business market more aggressively. > > There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of > Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone PDF > accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag feature in the > free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase of the expensive and > overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if the accessibility checker > will be a new product that checks against a full set of WCAG or PDF/UA > criteria to compete with offerings from CommonLook and PAC, or if it will > simply be a stand-alone version of the rudimentary Accessibility Check > feature currently built into Adobe Acrobat Pro. > > [1] Media Release: > > https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx > > [2] Developer AutoTag API page: > > https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ > > [3] Demo Sign Up: > https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html > > Phil. > > Philip Kiff > D4K Communications > > On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: > > We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing the > AutoTag feature. > > It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few > years and we still can?t depend on it for much. > > > > It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with one > heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at the top of > the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the default heading > tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. > > > > Duh. > > > > It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time will > tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. > > > > Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS Office > and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after it?s made, > but maybe that?s asking too much! > > > > *? ? ?* > > Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician* |* > Chagnon@PubCom.com > > *? ? ?* > > *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* > > consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services > > *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* > > > *? ? ?* > > Latest blog-newsletter > ? *Simple Guide > to Writing Alt-Text > * > > > > *From:* athen-list > *On Behalf Of *Susan > Kelmer > *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM > *To:* enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education > Network > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > > > To quote from the article: > > > > ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm > spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck > accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that > process.? > > > > Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the > file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, > and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? > > > > NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using > Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. > > > > /sarcasm > > > > *Susan Kelmer * > > Alternate Format Production Program Manager > > Disability Services > > Health and Wellness Services > > *T* 303 735 4836 > > *www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices > * > > > > > > > > *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this > message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please > notify the sender immediately and delete this message. * > > > > > > > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits > *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM > *To:* chagnon@pubcom.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > > > Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: > > > > Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based > Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes > > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c > > > > *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* > > > > Publisher (2020-Present) > > *Top Tech Tidbits* > > The Week's News in Adaptive Technology > > https://toptechtidbits.com ? > > > > > > *From:* chagnon@pubcom.com > *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM > *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Cc:* enews@toptechtidbits.com > *Subject:* RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > > > Hi Aaron, > > > > I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of > date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. > > > > Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags > > > https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V > > > > 1. The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe > announced Monday, May 6, 20*13*?? and the rest is pure nonsense. > 2. The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. > It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at > correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a > logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only > when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. > > > > We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the > horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user > interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the > future, however. > > > > I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. > > > > *? ? ?* > > Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician* |* > Chagnon@PubCom.com > > *? ? ?* > > *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* > > consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services > > *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* > > > *? ? ?* > > Latest blog-newsletter > ? *Simple Guide > to Writing Alt-Text > * > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM > *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help > > > > Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I > think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF > accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. > > > > Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags > > > https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V > > > > *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* > > > > Publisher (2020-Present) > > *Top Tech Tidbits* > > The Week's News in Adaptive Technology > > https://toptechtidbits.com ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > athen-list mailing list > > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > athen-list mailing list > > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tlmarzewski at asub.edu Fri May 19 11:46:23 2023 From: tlmarzewski at asub.edu (Tisha L. Marzewski) Date: Fri May 19 11:46:28 2023 Subject: [Athen] ASC is in Two Weeks! Are you registered? Message-ID: Accessibility Summer Camp Friday, June 2, 2023 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM CST Virtual and Free! What to know: Registration is quick and free and grants you access to post-conference recordings of all sessions. You can attend from anywhere and on a flexible schedule, as sessions run throughout the day. You can win prizes based on social media participation, session attendance, and the lunch and learn easter egg challenge. How to Register and Attend: Register for free on the ASC Registration Page. Check out the ASC Program and register for sessions you want to attend and receive the Zoom registration links. Follow ASC on Facebook or LinkedIn and YouTube to see new content as it is created. So how will you Accessibility Summer Camp? Perhaps you will summer camp with .. Turning Disadvantages into Advantages with Keynote Speaker, Dr. Hoby Wedler Take Your Video Accessibility to the Next with Breakout session 1D Accessible Math Handbook with Breakout session 2C The Disability Inclusion Revolution with Keynote Speaker, Cam Beaudoin Tisha L Marzewski | Coordinator of Disability Services Arkansas State University-Beebe McKay Student Center, Room 202D PO Box 1000 Beebe AR 72012 | 501.882.8863 tlmarzewski@asub.edu | www.asub.edu ?Transforming Lives Through Quality Learning Experiences? Schedule an appointment with Tisha at Disability Services -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From metzessible at gmail.com Fri May 19 11:48:05 2023 From: metzessible at gmail.com (Metzessible) Date: Fri May 19 11:48:45 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> <000001d98a71$0428caa0$0c7a5fe0$@karlencommunications.com> Message-ID: It never ceases to amaze me how much hate this stupid file format receives. It came out in 1993 and it was never intended to be used as an accessible format. In fact, tagging wasn't even available until 2001. I would argue the purpose of tagging was merely so PDF could be translated into yet another file format (like Word or HTML), and using it for accessibility just happened to be a [un]happy accident. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of it either, and I worked on PDF/UA! But getting frustrated with this because it doesn't fit your needs just seems unnecessary. I mean, if you hate it so much, stop making them. I mean, even saying "make a PDF" is a misnomer. You're converting something from the original format and making it something completely different. But tell me another way to get a format that anyone can use that takes an image and adds a structure to it, is editable without complex packaging, works cross-platform, and retains the exact look and feel of the original document's complex layout. I've got a print disability. If someone converted a school-provided PDF to be a wall of text, I'd file a 504 complaint. That's essentially equivalent to "separate but equal". It's also worth noting that if you're not making your PDFs accessible and your organization receives federal funding, you're likely violating a number of laws. Sorry for jumping on the derailment. Jon Metz On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 2:25?PM Metzessible wrote: > I think this auto-tag "feature" is specifically intended for use with > Adobe Experience Manager, as that's what uses Adobe Sensei the most. > They're calling it "Smart Tagging (link: > https://business.adobe.com/products/experience-manager/assets/smart-tagging.html). > The caption for that photo is for a File photo, so chances are it's in the > metadata of the file. I haven't inspected it myself. > > On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 12:44?PM wrote: > >> I just read a post on LinkedIn by Matt May, the Adobe Accessibility lead. >> He is not well and taking time to recuperate. >> >> >> >> Not sure what the status of accessibility is in his absence. >> >> >> >> Cheers, Karen >> >> >> >> *From:* athen-list *On >> Behalf Of *Philip Kiff >> *Sent:* Friday, May 19, 2023 11:05 AM >> *To:* athen-list@u.washington.edu >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> >> >> Another quick follow-up on this. >> >> I just tested the Demo using a two-page PDF newsletter generated by Canva >> - which generally produces absolutely horrendous PDF files. And I tested >> the AutoTag output from my version of Adobe Acrobat Pro and compared it to >> the output from the Demo API. >> >> First thing to note is that I am not given the option of using Adobe >> Cloud for AutoTag when I attempt to use the AutoTag feature in Adobe >> Acrobat Pro. I selected not to use the cloud because I want to be able to >> compare the outputs. >> >> Next thing to note is that the output from the AutoTag built in to >> Acrobat has gotten much better recently. Even just a few months ago, it was >> not worth my time to start remediating a Canva file with Autotag. But >> today, the file it output on its own was a good starting point. >> >> Comparing the output from Acrobat Pro to the Cloud Demo, I notice a few >> differences. One significant difference in this file is that the built-in >> Acrobat Autotag does not correctly tag any annotations (hyperlinks). >> Whereas the Adobe AutoTag API Demo does a pretty good job of generating >> proper Link/Reference tags. Also, the AutoTag API Demo actually creates a >> root tag like it is supposed to, instead of putting everything >> inside a
tag. >> >> I would say that if you have a choice, right now, and you don't mind the >> loss of privacy/security with uploading files to Adobe, then I would >> recommend using the AutoTag API Demo instead of using the built-in Adobe >> Acrobat Autotag feature. >> >> Phil. >> >> On 2023-05-19 08:10, Philip Kiff wrote: >> >> A couple corrections and a re-interpretation after re-reading things this >> morning. >> >> The media release was from May 17, the day before GAAD, not on May 18. >> >> Adobe isn't claiming they are going to release a stand-alone version of >> the PDF Accessibility Checker . I must have heard that somewhere else, but >> wherever I heard it, it doesn't sound like that's true based on the media >> release. I'm not quite sure what the release is saying about the checker - >> I think Adobe needs someone with clear language training to help write >> their media releases!: >> "The PDF Accessibility Checker, available in Acrobat via an API, will >> enable organizations to quickly and easily evaluate the accessibility of >> existing PDFs at scale." >> >> So the PDF Accessibility Checker will probably also be an API connecting >> to a cloud-based function? And when you use it in Acrobat, it will use the >> cloud-based API, instead of running locally on your computer using code run >> by Acrobat. It's too bad that they are calling it "PDF Accessibility >> Checker", since that will mean it gets confused with the per-existing free >> PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool. >> >> I guess we'll see. >> >> Phil. >> >> On 2023-05-19 01:31, Philip Kiff wrote: >> >> So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) that >> sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). >> >> Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more info. >> >> They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. >> >> I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at >> developers, not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has been >> built into Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. >> >> Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by their >> so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that the AutoTag >> feature in Acrobat Pro runs the exact same code as that in their (new?) >> API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language around the phrase >> "artificial intelligence", I have the impression that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag >> feature depends entirely on code run locally on your computer, whereas the >> AutoTag API will run somewhere in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be >> similar. Who knows. >> >> Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're >> talking about Bevi? >> >> Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in >> Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a starting >> point when I am remediating files. >> >> But I can see a value in having an API that developers can incorporate >> into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to automate >> large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. There are already >> some other document accessibility companies that offer automated solutions >> for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I think, so I expect this signals >> that Adobe has decided to enter into this business market more aggressively. >> >> There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of >> Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone PDF >> accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag feature in the >> free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase of the expensive and >> overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if the accessibility checker >> will be a new product that checks against a full set of WCAG or PDF/UA >> criteria to compete with offerings from CommonLook and PAC, or if it will >> simply be a stand-alone version of the rudimentary Accessibility Check >> feature currently built into Adobe Acrobat Pro. >> >> [1] Media Release: >> >> https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx >> >> [2] Developer AutoTag API page: >> >> https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ >> >> [3] Demo Sign Up: >> https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html >> >> Phil. >> >> Philip Kiff >> D4K Communications >> >> On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: >> >> We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing the >> AutoTag feature. >> >> It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few >> years and we still can?t depend on it for much. >> >> >> >> It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with one >> heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at the top of >> the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the default heading >> tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. >> >> >> >> Duh. >> >> >> >> It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time will >> tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. >> >> >> >> Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS Office >> and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after it?s made, >> but maybe that?s asking too much! >> >> >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician* |* >> Chagnon@PubCom.com >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* >> >> consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services >> >> *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* >> >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Latest blog-newsletter >> ? *Simple Guide >> to Writing Alt-Text >> * >> >> >> >> *From:* athen-list >> *On Behalf Of *Susan >> Kelmer >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM >> *To:* enews@toptechtidbits.com; Access Technology Higher Education >> Network >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> >> >> To quote from the article: >> >> >> >> ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm >> spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck >> accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that >> process.? >> >> >> >> Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the >> file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, >> and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? >> >> >> >> NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using >> Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. >> >> >> >> /sarcasm >> >> >> >> *Susan Kelmer * >> >> Alternate Format Production Program Manager >> >> Disability Services >> >> Health and Wellness Services >> >> *T* 303 735 4836 >> >> *www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices >> * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this >> message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please >> notify the sender immediately and delete this message. * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* athen-list *On >> Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM >> *To:* chagnon@pubcom.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < >> athen-list@u.washington.edu> >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> >> >> Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: >> >> >> >> Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based >> Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes >> >> >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c >> >> >> >> *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* >> >> >> >> Publisher (2020-Present) >> >> *Top Tech Tidbits* >> >> The Week's News in Adaptive Technology >> >> https://toptechtidbits.com ? >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* chagnon@pubcom.com >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM >> *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < >> athen-list@u.washington.edu> >> *Cc:* enews@toptechtidbits.com >> *Subject:* RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> >> >> Hi Aaron, >> >> >> >> I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of >> date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. >> >> >> >> Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags >> >> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V >> >> >> >> 1. The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe >> announced Monday, May 6, 20*13*?? and the rest is pure nonsense. >> 2. The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. >> It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at >> correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a >> logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only >> when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. >> >> >> >> We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the >> horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user >> interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the >> future, however. >> >> >> >> I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. >> >> >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Bevi Chagnon *| *Designer, Accessibility Technician* |* >> Chagnon@PubCom.com >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> *PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing* >> >> consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services >> >> *Upcoming classes* at www.PubCom.com/*classes* >> >> >> *? ? ?* >> >> Latest blog-newsletter >> ? *Simple Guide >> to Writing Alt-Text >> * >> >> >> >> *From:* athen-list *On >> Behalf Of *Top Tech Tidbits >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM >> *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < >> athen-list@u.washington.edu> >> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help >> >> >> >> Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I >> think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF >> accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. >> >> >> >> Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags >> >> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V >> >> >> >> *Aaron Di Blasi, PMP* >> >> >> >> Publisher (2020-Present) >> >> *Top Tech Tidbits* >> >> The Week's News in Adaptive Technology >> >> https://toptechtidbits.com ? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> athen-list mailing list >> >> athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu >> >> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> athen-list mailing list >> >> athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu >> >> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list >> >> _______________________________________________ >> athen-list mailing list >> athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu >> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From enews at toptechtidbits.com Fri May 19 12:56:14 2023 From: enews at toptechtidbits.com (Top Tech Tidbits) Date: Fri May 19 12:56:20 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: <004001d98909$bd9c2c20$38d48460$@toptechtidbits.com> <005a01d9894f$3382c490$9a884db0$@pubcom.com> <004701d989ca$28d5a730$7a80f590$@toptechtidbits.com> <006e01d989da$712694d0$5373be70$@pubcom.com> <8e4b044a-3b7f-65e0-16ef-cc7b8ea64a7d@d4k.ca> <6ce8358c-4b4e-c075-db45-09b133442bf7@d4k.ca> <000001d98a71$0428caa 0$0c7a5fe0$@karlencommunications.com> Message-ID: <00d001d98a8b$f7e50950$e7af1bf0$@toptechtidbits.com> An incredibly thoughtful and very well written addition to this derailment, in my humble opinion. I too share a love/hate relationship with those three little letters. And not just for remediation and accessibility, but also for high quality print output that we send to printers around the world. Same deal here. Adobe never ?intended? for PDFs to be used as press master prints, no matter what they say, any more than they ?intended? for PDF to be an accessible format. As you have very accurately stated, it was never ?intended? to be an accessible format. Adobe did their best to ?turn it into? an accessible format. And for better or worse it may just be the best thing that we have today in both regards. But I very strongly believe that is about to change in a very big way. I can?t say exactly how, or when, but I believe that AI will have a profound effect on PDFs, how they are created, and how they are remediated. I will be sure to share any news in this regard as I come across it. I sincerely appreciate the ability to discuss items like this with the list. Thank you. ? Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? Publisher (2022-Present) Access Information News The Week's News in Access Information https://accessinformationnews.com ? Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present) Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform. https://mvsltd.com ? Email: enews@toptechtidbits.com ? Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer. From: athen-list On Behalf Of Metzessible Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 2:48 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help It never ceases to amaze me how much hate this stupid file format receives. It came out in 1993 and it was never intended to be used as an accessible format. In fact, tagging wasn't even available until 2001. I would argue the purpose of tagging was merely so PDF could be translated into yet another file format (like Word or HTML), and using it for accessibility just happened to be a [un]happy accident. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of it either, and I worked on PDF/UA! But getting frustrated with this because it doesn't fit your needs just seems unnecessary. I mean, if you hate it so much, stop making them. I mean, even saying "make a PDF" is a misnomer. You're converting something from the original format and making it something completely different. But tell me another way to get a format that anyone can use that takes an image and adds a structure to it, is editable without complex packaging, works cross-platform, and retains the exact look and feel of the original document's complex layout. I've got a print disability. If someone converted a school-provided PDF to be a wall of text, I'd file a 504 complaint. That's essentially equivalent to "separate but equal". It's also worth noting that if you're not making your PDFs accessible and your organization receives federal funding, you're likely violating a number of laws. Sorry for jumping on the derailment. Jon Metz On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 2:25?PM Metzessible > wrote: I think this auto-tag "feature" is specifically intended for use with Adobe Experience Manager, as that's what uses Adobe Sensei the most. They're calling it "Smart Tagging (link: https://business.adobe.com/products/experience-manager/assets/smart-tagging.html). The caption for that photo is for a File photo, so chances are it's in the metadata of the file. I haven't inspected it myself. On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 12:44?PM > wrote: I just read a post on LinkedIn by Matt May, the Adobe Accessibility lead. He is not well and taking time to recuperate. Not sure what the status of accessibility is in his absence. Cheers, Karen From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Philip Kiff Sent: Friday, May 19, 2023 11:05 AM To: athen-list@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Another quick follow-up on this. I just tested the Demo using a two-page PDF newsletter generated by Canva - which generally produces absolutely horrendous PDF files. And I tested the AutoTag output from my version of Adobe Acrobat Pro and compared it to the output from the Demo API. First thing to note is that I am not given the option of using Adobe Cloud for AutoTag when I attempt to use the AutoTag feature in Adobe Acrobat Pro. I selected not to use the cloud because I want to be able to compare the outputs. Next thing to note is that the output from the AutoTag built in to Acrobat has gotten much better recently. Even just a few months ago, it was not worth my time to start remediating a Canva file with Autotag. But today, the file it output on its own was a good starting point. Comparing the output from Acrobat Pro to the Cloud Demo, I notice a few differences. One significant difference in this file is that the built-in Acrobat Autotag does not correctly tag any annotations (hyperlinks). Whereas the Adobe AutoTag API Demo does a pretty good job of generating proper Link/Reference tags. Also, the AutoTag API Demo actually creates a root tag like it is supposed to, instead of putting everything inside a
tag. I would say that if you have a choice, right now, and you don't mind the loss of privacy/security with uploading files to Adobe, then I would recommend using the AutoTag API Demo instead of using the built-in Adobe Acrobat Autotag feature. Phil. On 2023-05-19 08:10, Philip Kiff wrote: A couple corrections and a re-interpretation after re-reading things this morning. The media release was from May 17, the day before GAAD, not on May 18. Adobe isn't claiming they are going to release a stand-alone version of the PDF Accessibility Checker . I must have heard that somewhere else, but wherever I heard it, it doesn't sound like that's true based on the media release. I'm not quite sure what the release is saying about the checker - I think Adobe needs someone with clear language training to help write their media releases!: "The PDF Accessibility Checker, available in Acrobat via an API, will enable organizations to quickly and easily evaluate the accessibility of existing PDFs at scale." So the PDF Accessibility Checker will probably also be an API connecting to a cloud-based function? And when you use it in Acrobat, it will use the cloud-based API, instead of running locally on your computer using code run by Acrobat. It's too bad that they are calling it "PDF Accessibility Checker", since that will mean it gets confused with the per-existing free PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker) tool. I guess we'll see. Phil. On 2023-05-19 01:31, Philip Kiff wrote: So I found Adobe's media release [1] from yesterday (GAAD, May 18) that sparked the Forbes and other article (links at end of emal). Adobe has a page in their Developer documentation area [2] with more info. They have a free demo [3] (requires login) where you can test it out. I think that what Adobe are announcing is the new API aimed at developers, not just a new iteration of the Auto-Tag feature that has been built into Adobe Acrobat Pro for many years. Adobe seems to be suggesting that this API is partially driven by their so-called "AI" branded as "Sensei". It is not clear to me that the AutoTag feature in Acrobat Pro runs the exact same code as that in their (new?) API. Leaving aside the misleading marketing language around the phrase "artificial intelligence", I have the impression that Acrobat Pro's AutoTag feature depends entirely on code run locally on your computer, whereas the AutoTag API will run somewhere in Adobe's Cloud. Maybe the results will be similar. Who knows. Is that different than the AutoTag in the "new Acrobat" that you're talking about Bevi? Like Bevi and Susan, I find the AutoTag feature currently included in Adobe Acrobat Pro to be mediocre. Though I often still use it as a starting point when I am remediating files. But I can see a value in having an API that developers can incorporate into their own PDF generation processes or when trying to automate large-scale remediation efforts on collections of files. There are already some other document accessibility companies that offer automated solutions for remediation of PDF files in bulk, I think, so I expect this signals that Adobe has decided to enter into this business market more aggressively. There are two other items worth noting that appear towards the end of Adobe's press release. This fall, they plan to release a stand-alone PDF accessibility checker and they plan to include the AutoTag feature in the free Adobe Reader instead of it requiring the purchase of the expensive and overpriced Adobe Acrobat Pro. I'll be curious if the accessibility checker will be a new product that checks against a full set of WCAG or PDF/UA criteria to compete with offerings from CommonLook and PAC, or if it will simply be a stand-alone version of the rudimentary Accessibility Check feature currently built into Adobe Acrobat Pro. [1] Media Release: https://news.adobe.com/news/news-details/2023/Media-Alert-Adobe-Scales-PDF-Accessibility-With-Adobe-Sensei-AI/default.aspx [2] Developer AutoTag API page: https://developer.adobe.com/document-services/apis/pdf-accessibility-auto-tag/ [3] Demo Sign Up: https://acrobatservices.adobe.com/dc-accessibility-playground/main.html Phil. Philip Kiff D4K Communications On 2023-05-18 18:45, chagnon@pubcom.com wrote: We?ve been testing the new Acrobat for a year or so, and keep testing the AutoTag feature. It gets better with every new edition, but it?s been around for a few years and we still can?t depend on it for much. It did do one PDF just ok, sort of: it was a one-page document with one heading and several paragraphs of body text. Tagged the title at the top of the page as
, which from our testing seems to be the default heading tag AutoTag uses for the first heading. Duh. It seems to be sales hoopla from Adobe in honor of GAAD day. Time will tell if we actually get anything of substance from Acrobat. Sure wish Adobe would focus on making a more accurate PDF from MS Office and InDesign so that we don?t have to remediate the PDF after it?s made, but maybe that?s asking too much! ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 4:53 PM To: enews@toptechtidbits.com ; Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help To quote from the article: ?For example, before using the new Adobe API, a global financial firm spent more than 9 hours to make each individual presentation slide deck accessible. With Adobe?s new API, the firm has automated 70?80% of that process.? Should we tell them? Should we tell them that had they just created the file correctly in the first place, it would have taken only a few minutes, and no 9 hour remediation would have been required? NINE HOURS? What the heck were they doing? Oh yeah, they were using Adobe to fix an Adobe file. That works. /sarcasm Susan Kelmer Alternate Format Production Program Manager Disability Services Health and Wellness Services T 303 735 4836 www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:49 PM To: chagnon@pubcom.com ; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Here?s some additional information released by Forbes: Adobe Wants To Help Make PDF Documents More Accessible With AI-Based Auto-Tag API | May 17, 2023 | Steven Aquino | Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenaquino/2023/05/17/adobe-wants-to-help-make-pdf-documents-more-accessible-with-ai-based-auto-tag-api/?sh=5d0d4855b24c Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? From: chagnon@pubcom.com > Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Cc: enews@toptechtidbits.com Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Hi Aaron, I don?t know why the article is being posted as news. It?s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V 1. The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, ?Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013?? and the rest is pure nonsense. 2. The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It?s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there?s no better way to remediate a bad PDF. We?re beta testers for Adobe and I don?t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however. I?m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate. ? ? ? Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | Chagnon@PubCom.com ? ? ? PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ? training ? development ? design ? sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ classes ? ? ? Latest blog-newsletter ? Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months. Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V Aaron Di Blasi, PMP Publisher (2020-Present) Top Tech Tidbits The Week's News in Adaptive Technology https://toptechtidbits.com ? _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26194 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 8916 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rlcole at stanford.edu Tue May 23 13:47:54 2023 From: rlcole at stanford.edu (Robin Cole) Date: Tue May 23 13:48:01 2023 Subject: [Athen] Alternate Format Specialist Openings at Stanford Message-ID: <4EE9C81D-2012-4281-9414-64BDDE38CC9E@contoso.com> Stanford University's Alternate Format Production team has openings for an Alternate Format Specialist and a Senior Alternate Format & Braille Specialists. These are 3-year fixed term positions and are remote work eligible. The Alternate Format Production Production team within the Office of Accessible Education remediates educational documents; books, journal articles, problem sets, lecture slides and more for blind and low-vision students. Our students are primarily studying STEM fields so previous experience in producing html with mathML in higher ed is highly desired. The Senior Alternate Format & Braille Specialist requires certification in literary and Nemeth braille. Alternate Format Specialist https://careersearch.stanford.edu/jobs/alternate-format-specialist-21659 Sr. Alternate Format Specialist https://careersearch.stanford.edu/jobs/sr-alternate-format-braille-specialist-21651 Robin Cole | she/her | Alternate Format & Assistive Technology Manager OAE | CONNECT | Office of Accessible Education Stanford University - 563 Salvatierra Walk - Stanford, CA 94305 650-723-0942 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerscher at montana.com Thu May 25 09:36:57 2023 From: kerscher at montana.com (kerscher@montana.com) Date: Thu May 25 09:37:31 2023 Subject: [Athen] EPUB 3.3 becomes a W3C Recommendation Message-ID: <009501d98f27$236ad240$6a4076c0$@montana.com> Hello Higher Ed community, This work has been highlighted at CSUN and at AHG, and I thought you would want to be informed. https://www.w3.org/2023/05/pressrelease-epub33-rec.html.en https://www.w3.org/ - 25 May 2023 - W3C has just published the newest version of EPUB, EPUB 3.3, as a W3C Recommendation (an international Web Standard) as part of the Digital Publishing activity (established with the merger of IDPF and W3C in 2017). EPUB defines a distribution and interchange format for digital publications and documents. The EPUB format provides a means of representing, packaging, and encoding structured and semantically enhanced web content - including HTML, CSS, SVG, and other resources - for distribution in a single-file container. EPUB 3.3 is backward compatible with the previous version, EPUB 3.2, insofar as any EPUB 3.2 document is also valid EPUB 3.3. In other words, moving from EPUB 3.2 to EPUB 3.3 does not require any changes to current publication workflows. The W3C process of standardization entails a thorough review of the specifications by Member experts, including checking the specification's impact on implementations for internationalization, security, privacy, accessibility, and conformity to other Web standards. These reviews led to a number of small but important technical changes such as additional features to address bidirectional text, and more precise specification of security related details for scripts. The standard also includes detailed guidelines for implementers on the possible privacy and security problems. Best George George Kerscher Ph.D. -In our Information Age, access to information is a fundamental human right. Chief Innovations Officer, DAISY Consortium http://www.daisy.org Senior Advisor, Global Literacy, Benetech http://www.benetech.org President, International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF) http://www.idpf.org Chair Steering Council Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI), at W3C http://www.w3.org/WAI Phone: +1 406/549-4687 Cell:+1 406/544-2466 Email: kerscher@montana.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 67127 bytes Desc: not available URL: From armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu Wed May 31 11:33:42 2023 From: armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu (Deborah Armstrong) Date: Wed May 31 11:33:47 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been following this thread, and need to share something a co-worker discovered. When the source document is Word, but the user decides to convert it to PDF using older versions of Office on the Mac, we get the situation where the PDF is an image with poorly tagged text - often with words run together or single letters on each line. The sighted person doing the conversion can easily see this without needing to use a screen reader by simply saving the resulting PDF as text and looking at the text which results. The solution is to use a modern, fully updated version of Office on the Mac, or on Windows to save the Word document as a PDF. Then you get a PDF with the full image but also all the underlying text, properly formatted. We have a whole raft of PDF files on our intranet that someone saved with an old version of Office on the Mac, but when the source documents were converted to PDF with a modern version of Office, no remediation was required. So before anyone wastes time remediating a PDF find out if the source exists and if it can simply be converted with more modern software. I do wish people would stop using outdated software! --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu Wed May 31 11:52:23 2023 From: armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu (Deborah Armstrong) Date: Wed May 31 11:52:30 2023 Subject: [Athen] Epub to daisy? Message-ID: I've used the Daisy Pipeline years ago, but I'm wondering if there's a more modern, easier-to-learn solution for converting an unprotected epub to a Daisy file. I know epub is superior, but I'm asking for users of the new Humanware displays, the Brailliant, the NLS e-Reader and the APH chameleon which all use very similar firmware. They can display Daisy files in Braille and make navigation fairly easy if the file is properly marked up. But they cannot read epub files. --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dandrews920 at comcast.net Wed May 31 12:06:23 2023 From: dandrews920 at comcast.net (dandrews920@comcast.net) Date: Wed May 31 12:06:50 2023 Subject: [Athen] Epub to daisy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e0501d993f2$ff0f1ed0$fd2d5c70$@comcast.net> The Pipeline is around, and I believe there is a GUI available for it, so you don't have to do command line. Dave From: athen-list On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 1:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: [Athen] Epub to daisy? I've used the Daisy Pipeline years ago, but I'm wondering if there's a more modern, easier-to-learn solution for converting an unprotected epub to a Daisy file. I know epub is superior, but I'm asking for users of the new Humanware displays, the Brailliant, the NLS e-Reader and the APH chameleon which all use very similar firmware. They can display Daisy files in Braille and make navigation fairly easy if the file is properly marked up. But they cannot read epub files. --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu Wed May 31 12:58:00 2023 From: armstrongdeborah at fhda.edu (Deborah Armstrong) Date: Wed May 31 12:58:06 2023 Subject: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare Message-ID: I've been wanting to write this up for a while. There's been conversation on the list about the errors in Bookshare books, and here's my take: I became a Bookshare member in 2002; I was an early adopter and was downloading books a month after the organization got started. As a service that lets people share books they scanned, it worked great. Nobody expected perfection. We were happy to jus have the book to read. Books on their platform work great if you just want to read with speech or Braille. But if you expect good formatting, reliable page markup - reliable any markup in fact, forget it. The problem isn't necessarily with their books but with the promise that you'll get the same experience as if you could read the printed book. You won't! Last year I was struggling to learn SQL. I'm still not very good at it. This was mainly because the books had diagrams that weren't included in either the PDFS I got from the publisher for my courses or the ones on Bookshare. The publisher can decide not to include images. They want you after all to buy the book. Or at least rent it. I ended up renting one of my textbooks so I could have all the images, even though I'm blind. I can always get someone to describe an image if it's actually in the book. (Even so I never really grasped the difference between inner joins and outer joins.) Bookshare is great for fiction, literature and essay-style nonfiction. I like reading technical books in Braille and Bookshare makes that possible as well. It's just not very useful for textbooks if you expect the printed textbook experience. The publisher can give Bookshare the online version of the book which is missing content. They can choose to exclude all or some of the visual content. Or the book is scanned and therefore the formatting is non-existent or inconsistent. I love Bookshare but that's because my expectations are pretty low. --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From normajean.brand at hccs.edu Wed May 31 13:01:11 2023 From: normajean.brand at hccs.edu (normajean.brand) Date: Wed May 31 13:05:51 2023 Subject: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [like] normajean.brand reacted to your message: ________________________________ From: athen-list on behalf of Deborah Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 6:33:42 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help I?ve been following this thread, and need to share something a co-worker discovered. When the source document is Word, but the user decides to convert it to PDF using older versions of Office on the Mac, we get the situation where the PDF is an image with poorly tagged text ? often with words run together or single letters on each line. The sighted person doing the conversion can easily see this without needing to use a screen reader by simply saving the resulting PDF as text and looking at the text which results. The solution is to use a modern, fully updated version of Office on the Mac, or on Windows to save the Word document as a PDF. Then you get a PDF with the full image but also all the underlying text, properly formatted. We have a whole raft of PDF files on our intranet that someone saved with an old version of Office on the Mac, but when the source documents were converted to PDF with a modern version of Office, no remediation was required. So before anyone wastes time remediating a PDF find out if the source exists and if it can simply be converted with more modern software. I do wish people would stop using outdated software! --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerscher at montana.com Wed May 31 15:12:39 2023 From: kerscher at montana.com (kerscher@montana.com) Date: Wed May 31 15:12:39 2023 Subject: [Athen] Epub to daisy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004e01d9940d$0361d850$0a2588f0$@montana.com> Hello, The DAISY Pipeline App was released in April, version 1.0.0 and can be found at: https://github.com/daisy/pipeline-ui/releases/tag/1.0.0 You will find a list of conversion scripts with their documentation. The community should expect releases on a quarterly basis. The App and scripts are being actively improved. The place for filing issues is at: https://github.com/daisy/pipeline/issues And a forum for discussions and questions can be found at: https://github.com/daisy/pipeline/discussions Best George From: athen-list On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 12:52 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: [Athen] Epub to daisy? I've used the Daisy Pipeline years ago, but I'm wondering if there's a more modern, easier-to-learn solution for converting an unprotected epub to a Daisy file. I know epub is superior, but I'm asking for users of the new Humanware displays, the Brailliant, the NLS e-Reader and the APH chameleon which all use very similar firmware. They can display Daisy files in Braille and make navigation fairly easy if the file is properly marked up. But they cannot read epub files. --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foreigntype at gmail.com Wed May 31 15:19:46 2023 From: foreigntype at gmail.com (foreigntype@gmail.com) Date: Wed May 31 15:20:29 2023 Subject: [Athen] Epub to daisy? In-Reply-To: <004e01d9940d$0361d850$0a2588f0$@montana.com> References: <004e01d9940d$0361d850$0a2588f0$@montana.com> Message-ID: I have used the e-pub to daisy app George K suggested and have found it to be very straightforward and easy to use. Wink Harner Accessibility Consultant/Alternative Text Production The Foreign Type Portland OR foreigntype@gmail.com 480-984-0034 This email was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive quirks, misrecognitions, or errata . Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 3:12?PM wrote: > Hello, > > > > The DAISY Pipeline App was released in April, version 1.0.0 and can be > found at: > > https://github.com/daisy/pipeline-ui/releases/tag/1.0.0 > > > > You will find a list of conversion scripts with their documentation. > > > > The community should expect releases on a quarterly basis. The App and > scripts are being actively improved. > > > > > > The place for filing issues is at: > > https://github.com/daisy/pipeline/issues > > > > And a forum for discussions and questions can be found at: > > https://github.com/daisy/pipeline/discussions > > > > *Best* > > *George* > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Deborah Armstrong > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2023 12:52 PM > *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* [Athen] Epub to daisy? > > > > I?ve used the Daisy Pipeline years ago, but I?m wondering if there?s a > more modern, easier-to-learn solution for converting an unprotected epub to > a Daisy file. > > I know epub is superior, but I?m asking for users of the new Humanware > displays, the Brailliant, the NLS e-Reader and the APH chameleon which all > use very similar firmware. They can display Daisy files in Braille and make > navigation fairly easy if the file is properly marked up. But they cannot > read epub files. > > --Debee > > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerscher at montana.com Wed May 31 16:12:41 2023 From: kerscher at montana.com (kerscher@montana.com) Date: Wed May 31 16:12:46 2023 Subject: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007b01d99415$69f331b0$3dd99510$@montana.com> Hello Deborah and All, I have a bit more to add to Deborah's post. First, we at Benetech and at other organizations worldwide are advocating to publishers to make their titles Born accessible. In Europe, the European Accessibility Act (EAA) requires that all digital publications are to be fully accessible by June 2023. This is having a huge impact in the publishing industry, and because many higher education publishers sell throughout the world, we have reason to be optimistic. The Global Certified Accessible (GCA) service run by Benetech/Bookshare is having a huge impact today. The publishers who are GCA certified are producing terrific titles that are Born Accessible. All the GCA approved titles are also in the Bookshare collection, but right now they are hard to identify if they are GCA approved, or just the run-of-the-mill contributions from publishers. We will be exposing more metadata about this in the future. I will post here when available. All the titles that are GCA certified can also be found at the Benetech Accessible eBookstore found at: https://benetechaccessiblebooks.vitalsource.com/ Now for tips: If you find a title in the bookstore above, they are also in the Bookshare collection and will be top quality. Secondly, when identifying titles for your use, look for the latest copyright, because the publishers are improving their production workflow. Personally, my approach is to download three or four of the latest copyrighted titles in the EPUB 3 format in the area I am trying to learn. I then go through them and figure out which title is best. I delete the ones that are inferior. Finally, we have been advocating that professors look at the accessibility metadata in the VitalSource and RedShelf bookstores and pick titles for the courses that are accessible! We are working hard to transform the publishing industry! Publishers should be using the Accessibility Checker for EPUB (ACE by DAISY) and use the Simple Manual Accessibility Reporting Tool (SMART) to improve the accessibility of their titles. So, join us in advocating for Born Accessible titles from all publishers. Best George From: athen-list On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023, 1:58 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' Subject: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare I've been wanting to write this up for a while. There's been conversation on the list about the errors in Bookshare books, and here's my take: I became a Bookshare member in 2002; I was an early adopter and was downloading books a month after the organization got started. As a service that lets people share books they scanned, it worked great. Nobody expected perfection. We were happy to jus have the book to read. Books on their platform work great if you just want to read with speech or Braille. But if you expect good formatting, reliable page markup - reliable any markup in fact, forget it. The problem isn't necessarily with their books but with the promise that you'll get the same experience as if you could read the printed book. You won't! Last year I was struggling to learn SQL. I'm still not very good at it. This was mainly because the books had diagrams that weren't included in either the PDFS I got from the publisher for my courses or the ones on Bookshare. The publisher can decide not to include images. They want you after all to buy the book. Or at least rent it. I ended up renting one of my textbooks so I could have all the images, even though I'm blind. I can always get someone to describe an image if it's actually in the book. (Even so I never really grasped the difference between inner joins and outer joins.) Bookshare is great for fiction, literature and essay-style nonfiction. I like reading technical books in Braille and Bookshare makes that possible as well. It's just not very useful for textbooks if you expect the printed textbook experience. The publisher can give Bookshare the online version of the book which is missing content. They can choose to exclude all or some of the visual content. Or the book is scanned and therefore the formatting is non-existent or inconsistent. I love Bookshare but that's because my expectations are pretty low. --Debee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foreigntype at gmail.com Wed May 31 16:35:23 2023 From: foreigntype at gmail.com (foreigntype@gmail.com) Date: Wed May 31 16:36:05 2023 Subject: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare In-Reply-To: <007b01d99415$69f331b0$3dd99510$@montana.com> References: <007b01d99415$69f331b0$3dd99510$@montana.com> Message-ID: To add an additional push to George's post, encouraging professors on our own campuses to search for and select the Born Accessible textbook titles is always a good idea. I would add, having been a professor for many years, few of us are permitted to pick our own textbooks. This adoption of curriculum comes from the department chairs, so let's aim some PR to university department chairs and those responsible for adopting textbooks and curricula. Another department worthy of our efforts in proselytizing Born Accessible curricula is course development and/or the faculty development departments. Recommendations from these departments also carry a lot of weight in this area. My thoughts. Wink Wink Harner Accessibility Consultant/Alternative Text Production The Foreign Type Portland OR foreigntype@gmail.com 480-984-0034 This email was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive quirks, misrecognitions, or errata . Virus-free.www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 4:13?PM wrote: > Hello Deborah and All, > > > > I have a bit more to add to Deborah?s post. > > > > First, we at Benetech and at other organizations worldwide are advocating > to publishers to make their titles Born accessible. In Europe, the European > Accessibility Act (EAA) requires that all digital publications are to be > fully accessible by June 2023. This is having a huge impact in the > publishing industry, and because many higher education publishers sell > throughout the world, we have reason to be optimistic. > > > > The Global Certified Accessible (GCA) service run by Benetech/Bookshare is > having a huge impact today. The publishers who are GCA certified are > producing terrific titles that are Born Accessible. All the GCA approved > titles are also in the Bookshare collection, but right now they are hard to > identify if they are GCA approved, or just the run-of-the-mill > contributions from publishers. We will be exposing more metadata about this > in the future. I will post here when available. > > > > All the titles that are GCA certified can also be found at the Benetech > Accessible eBookstore found at: > > > > https://benetechaccessiblebooks.vitalsource.com/ > > > > Now for tips: > > > > If you find a title in the bookstore above, they are also in the Bookshare > collection and will be top quality. > > > > Secondly, when identifying titles for your use, look for the latest > copyright, because the publishers are improving their production workflow. > > > > Personally, my approach is to download three or four of the latest > copyrighted titles in the EPUB 3 format in the area I am trying to learn. > I then go through them and figure out which title is best. I delete the > ones that are inferior. > > > > Finally, we have been advocating that professors look at the accessibility > metadata in the VitalSource and RedShelf bookstores and pick titles for the > courses that are accessible! > > > > We are working hard to transform the publishing industry! Publishers > should be using the Accessibility Checker for EPUB (ACE by DAISY) and use > the Simple Manual Accessibility Reporting Tool (SMART) to improve the > accessibility of their titles. > > > > So, join us in advocating for Born Accessible titles from all publishers. > > > > Best > > George > > > > > > > > *From:* athen-list *On > Behalf Of *Deborah Armstrong > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 31, 2023, 1:58 PM > *To:* 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' < > athen-list@u.washington.edu> > *Subject:* [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare > > > > I?ve been wanting to write this up for a while. There?s been conversation > on the list about the errors in Bookshare books, and here?s my take: > > I became a Bookshare member in 2002; I was an early adopter and was > downloading books a month after the organization got started. As a service > that lets people share books they scanned, it worked great. Nobody expected > perfection. We were happy to jus have the book to read. > > Books on their platform work great if you just want to read with speech or > Braille. But if you expect good formatting, reliable page markup ? reliable > any markup in fact, forget it. The problem isn?t necessarily with their > books but with the promise that you?ll get the same experience as if you > could read the printed book. You won?t! > > Last year I was struggling to learn SQL. I?m still not very good at it. > This was mainly because the books had diagrams that weren?t included in > either the PDFS I got from the publisher for my courses or the ones on > Bookshare. The publisher can decide not to include images. They want you > after all to buy the book. Or at least rent it. > > I ended up renting one of my textbooks so I could have all the images, > even though I?m blind. I can always get someone to describe an image if > it?s actually in the book. (Even so I never really grasped the difference > between inner joins and outer joins.) > > Bookshare is great for fiction, literature and essay-style nonfiction. I > like reading technical books in Braille and Bookshare makes that possible > as well. It?s just not very useful for textbooks if you expect the printed > textbook experience. The publisher can give Bookshare the online version of > the book which is missing content. They can choose to exclude all or some > of the visual content. Or the book is scanned and therefore the formatting > is non-existent or inconsistent. > > I love Bookshare but that?s because my expectations are pretty low. > > --Debee > > > _______________________________________________ > athen-list mailing list > athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu > http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhori at ucdavis.edu Wed May 31 17:03:44 2023 From: jhori at ucdavis.edu (Joshua Hori) Date: Wed May 31 17:03:50 2023 Subject: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare In-Reply-To: References: <007b01d99415$69f331b0$3dd99510$@montana.com> Message-ID: I?ve been trying to address exactly this issue with Libretext OER textbooks and we?ve created a tool that?s similar to Pope Tech. https://blog.libretexts.org/2022/09/26/checking-in-with-libretexts-accessibility-checker/ If Benetech/Bookshare is interested, 2 of my student programmers are graduating this year. Best, ~ Joshua From: athen-list on behalf of foreigntype@gmail.com Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 4:36 PM To: Access Technology Higher Education Network Subject: Re: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare To add an additional push to George's post, encouraging professors on our own campuses to search for and select the Born Accessible textbook titles is always a good idea. I would add, having been a professor for many years, few of us are permitted to pick our own textbooks. This adoption of curriculum comes from the department chairs, so let's aim some PR to university department chairs and those responsible for adopting textbooks and curricula. Another department worthy of our efforts in proselytizing Born Accessible curricula is course development and/or the faculty development departments. Recommendations from these departments also carry a lot of weight in this area. My thoughts. Wink Wink Harner Accessibility Consultant/Alternative Text Production The Foreign Type Portland OR foreigntype@gmail.com 480-984-0034 This email was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive quirks, misrecognitions, or errata . [Image removed by sender.] Virus-free.www.avast.com On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 4:13?PM > wrote: Hello Deborah and All, I have a bit more to add to Deborah?s post. First, we at Benetech and at other organizations worldwide are advocating to publishers to make their titles Born accessible. In Europe, the European Accessibility Act (EAA) requires that all digital publications are to be fully accessible by June 2023. This is having a huge impact in the publishing industry, and because many higher education publishers sell throughout the world, we have reason to be optimistic. The Global Certified Accessible (GCA) service run by Benetech/Bookshare is having a huge impact today. The publishers who are GCA certified are producing terrific titles that are Born Accessible. All the GCA approved titles are also in the Bookshare collection, but right now they are hard to identify if they are GCA approved, or just the run-of-the-mill contributions from publishers. We will be exposing more metadata about this in the future. I will post here when available. All the titles that are GCA certified can also be found at the Benetech Accessible eBookstore found at: https://benetechaccessiblebooks.vitalsource.com/ Now for tips: If you find a title in the bookstore above, they are also in the Bookshare collection and will be top quality. Secondly, when identifying titles for your use, look for the latest copyright, because the publishers are improving their production workflow. Personally, my approach is to download three or four of the latest copyrighted titles in the EPUB 3 format in the area I am trying to learn. I then go through them and figure out which title is best. I delete the ones that are inferior. Finally, we have been advocating that professors look at the accessibility metadata in the VitalSource and RedShelf bookstores and pick titles for the courses that are accessible! We are working hard to transform the publishing industry! Publishers should be using the Accessibility Checker for EPUB (ACE by DAISY) and use the Simple Manual Accessibility Reporting Tool (SMART) to improve the accessibility of their titles. So, join us in advocating for Born Accessible titles from all publishers. Best George From: athen-list > On Behalf Of Deborah Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023, 1:58 PM To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' > Subject: [Athen] My opinion on Bookshare I?ve been wanting to write this up for a while. There?s been conversation on the list about the errors in Bookshare books, and here?s my take: I became a Bookshare member in 2002; I was an early adopter and was downloading books a month after the organization got started. As a service that lets people share books they scanned, it worked great. Nobody expected perfection. We were happy to jus have the book to read. Books on their platform work great if you just want to read with speech or Braille. But if you expect good formatting, reliable page markup ? reliable any markup in fact, forget it. The problem isn?t necessarily with their books but with the promise that you?ll get the same experience as if you could read the printed book. You won?t! Last year I was struggling to learn SQL. I?m still not very good at it. This was mainly because the books had diagrams that weren?t included in either the PDFS I got from the publisher for my courses or the ones on Bookshare. The publisher can decide not to include images. They want you after all to buy the book. Or at least rent it. I ended up renting one of my textbooks so I could have all the images, even though I?m blind. I can always get someone to describe an image if it?s actually in the book. (Even so I never really grasped the difference between inner joins and outer joins.) Bookshare is great for fiction, literature and essay-style nonfiction. I like reading technical books in Braille and Bookshare makes that possible as well. It?s just not very useful for textbooks if you expect the printed textbook experience. The publisher can give Bookshare the online version of the book which is missing content. They can choose to exclude all or some of the visual content. Or the book is scanned and therefore the formatting is non-existent or inconsistent. I love Bookshare but that?s because my expectations are pretty low. --Debee _______________________________________________ athen-list mailing list athen-list@mailman12.u.washington.edu http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: