[Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help

[Fowles, Derrick]

Hello all. We have a new job positing for a counselor position in our office. Please apply if you’re interested in joining our team. Access Specialist Position<https://careers.pageuppeople.com/968/cw/en-us/job/525667/access-specialist>

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of chagnon at pubcom.com
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2023 2:09 AM
To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help

Hi Aaron,

I don’t know why the article is being posted as news. It’s grossly out of date and is from the Microsoft news network portal.

Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V


  *   The photo captions reference software releases in 2013, “Adobe announced Monday, May 6, 2013…” and the rest is pure nonsense.
  *   The AutoTag feature has been in Acrobat Pro for quite a few years. It’s had marginal improvement every year, but overall still sucks at correctly tagging a document, separating text from graphics, and creating a logical reading order. We teach our clients and students how to use it only when there’s no better way to remediate a bad PDF.

We’re beta testers for Adobe and I don’t see anything substantial on the horizon for Acrobat anytime soon, other than an overhaul of the user interface (which is getting bad reviews). We still have hope for the future, however.

I’m chalking up this news release as stale and inaccurate.

— — —
Bevi Chagnon  | Designer, Accessibility Technician |  Chagnon at PubCom.com<mailto:Chagnon at PubCom.com>
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<http://www.pubcom.com/classes>
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter<https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text<https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml>

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Top Tech Tidbits
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 5:52 PM
To: 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help

Per recent discussions, this article was just released 8 hours ago. I think we should expect a number of updates from Adobe regarding PDF accessibility, remediation and AI in the coming months.

Adobe's New AI Automates PDF Accessibility Tags
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/adobe-s-new-ai-automates-pdf-accessibility-tags/ar-AA1biX4V

Aaron Di Blasi, PMP

Publisher (2020-Present)
Top Tech Tidbits
The Week's News in Adaptive Technology
https://toptechtidbits.com<https://toptechtidbits.com/> 🌐

Publisher (2022-Present)
Access Information News
The Week's News in Access Information
https://accessinformationnews.com<https://accessinformationnews.com/> 🌐

Sr. Project Management Professional (2006-Present)
Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd.
Innovative ideas. Solutions that perform.
https://mvsltd.com<https://mvsltd.com/> 🌐

[Text  Description automatically generated with low confidence]<https://www.toptechtidbits.com/>

Email: enews at toptechtidbits.com<mailto:enews at toptechtidbits.com> ✉
Subscribe (Free): https://toptechtidbits.com/subscribe
Subscribe (Premium): https://toptechtidbits.com/premium
Donate: https://toptechtidbits.com/donate
Sponsor: https://toptechtidbits.com/sponsor
Podcast: https://toptechtidbits.com/podcast
Facebook: https://toptechtidbits.com/facebook
Twitter: https://toptechtidbits.com/twitter
Mastodon: https://toptechtidbits.com/mastodon
LinkedIn: https://toptechtidbits.com/linkedin
YouTube: https://toptechtidbits.com/youtube
RSS: https://toptechtidbits.com/rss
Archive: https://toptechtidbits.com/search
A Mind Vault Solutions, Ltd. Publication: https://mvsltd.com<https://mvsltd.com/>

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and attachments, if any, may contain confidential information, which is privileged and protected from disclosure by Federal and State confidentiality laws, rules, and regulations. This e-mail and attachments, if any, are intended for the designated addressee only. If you are not the designated addressee, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this e-mail and its attachments, if any, may be unlawful and may subject you to legal consequences. If you have received this e-mail and attachments in error, please delete the e-mail and its attachments from your computer.

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Robert Beach
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:25 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help

I couldn’t agree more with Susan and Karen. Creating the document correctly from the beginning is best. If you need it in a different format, you can convert and keep the accessibility features. Yes, there are sometimes glitches, but I have rarely had any issues. PDF is not the best format to start with, even if you can include all of the accessibility features. It is too difficult to convert from.


Robert Lee Beach
Assistive Technology Specialist – Student Accessibility & Support Services

Kansas City Kansas Community College
7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112
O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678
rbeach at kckcc.edu<mailto:rbeach at kckcc.edu>



From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:14 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support at kckcc.edu<mailto:support at kckcc.edu>.
I agree. And our tools have gotten worse since at least 2018. Odd tags are thrown into the mix, we sometimes see an <Artifact> tag when there is no such thing. Artifacts by their very nature are supposed to be in the background.

The <Span> or what I call the “Spam” tag is all over the place for no good reason.

I stopped remediating PDFs because the UI of Acrobat (still the better of the tools) is so stark that it causes visual fatigue. If you switch to a darker mode, not everything switches.

I also find that some of the tools will mangle an accessible source document when they didn’t do that previously.

I agree with Susan as well in that we need to teach people how to create accessible source documents.

Cheers, Karen



From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 10:02 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

I will add one more comment to this stream…

Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion.  Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause.  You fix one thing, and it breaks another.  You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible.

The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to “fix” a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document.

And I’ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly:  If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see.  You don’t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven’t been done properly, etc.

And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files.  They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors.

I continue to be confused by the push to “fix” PDFs that are poorly made.  We need to not bother.  Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices<http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices>


[cid:image002.png at 01D9895F.FC056250]

Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you’ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.





From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can’t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order.

With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can’t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place.

Cheers, Karen

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in?

Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber
Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6
American Printing House
1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206
Main 502 895 2396
pferrara at aph.org<mailto:pferrara at aph.org>

[cid:image003.png at 01D9895F.FC056250]
[JAWS Certified, 2019]<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
[IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo]


From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision.

The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged.

Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order.

I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision.

Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible.

The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components.

I’ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years.

Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification.

Cheers, Karen

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help

All,
We are looking for any or all of the following:

  1.  Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS.
  2.  Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you.


Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber
Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6
American Printing House
1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206
Main 502 895 2396
pferrara at aph.org<mailto:pferrara at aph.org>

[cid:image003.png at 01D9895F.FC056250]
[JAWS Certified, 2019]<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
[IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo]


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20230518/8e922aa4/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 26194 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20230518/8e922aa4/attachment-0002.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.png
Type: image/png
Size: 8916 bytes
Desc: image002.png
URL: <http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20230518/8e922aa4/attachment-0003.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.png
Type: image/png
Size: 3131 bytes
Desc: image003.png
URL: <http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20230518/8e922aa4/attachment-0004.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image004.png
Type: image/png
Size: 30073 bytes
Desc: image004.png
URL: <http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20230518/8e922aa4/attachment-0005.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image005.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 15116 bytes
Desc: image005.jpg
URL: <http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20230518/8e922aa4/attachment-0003.jpg>