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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>Jim, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>I am going to give you my opinion, everything is cast in Jell-O at this
point. The k-12 folks have a legally mandated system, post-secondary has
nothing but we are getting some very good indications of were we should be going
from things like the CSU-Fullerton letter.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>Your conclusions are correct, but this is really a work in
progress and we are still at the initial stages of its development. At this
point I think all of this is best viewed as a framework on which we should be
leveraging all future efforts. Personally I think a fully implemented XML
based structure is what we should be moving towards and that may be manifested
as a Daisy Book, a Braille ready book, or as a NFF Book as a deliverable.
It is my opinion that currently the best standard that exists is the DTB3
standard, but as the technology develops over the next few years we should be
able to move beyond the limitations of this and look at the DTB3 as one
deliverable format.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>Long term we should all be producing materials based on the same set of
standards, and what we should get from the publishers is a raw, XML based file
containing all the underlying data sets from the specific
curriculum/textbook. It will then be our responsibility to convert that
file to the needed accommodation format be it Braille or Audio book.
Currently we are seeing several very immature tools for doing this markup
process, and as those develop we will know better were we are going. My
program is going to be part of the beta testing of the next version of the
Dolphin production tool, and the folks at the HTTCU are working with another
product system wide that is showing average book production times of 6-8
hours. Gaeir can jump in here in as she wishes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>What are my major concerns, the total lack of provision for graphics,
images, math and science in all of the current scenarios. How DS offices
or alt format production centers are going to ramp up the production efforts so
that they can deliver the needed final product, because in every reasonable
model I have looked at your are going to be working with an electronic source
file. Finally how are we all going to meet the timeline constraints that
are currently emerging, the whole book at the start of
class.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=421470623-25022005><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>Ron </FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Marks, Jim [mailto:Marks@mso.umt.edu]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 25, 2005 2:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Stewart,
Ron<BR><B>Cc:</B> adtech-ps@lists.oregonstate.edu;
athen@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [adtech-ps] RE: more e-text
discussion<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=703573922-25022005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Thanks, Ron, for your leadership on usable e-text. Those who access
print via alternate formats really need several tools to get the job done, and
some tools work well for some, but not all. Like you, I am troubled by
solutions that sort of address access, but don't quite deliver the kind of
utility that print disabled people must have to be on equal footing with print
readers. The adoption of NIMAS in IDEA 2004 should help us get to a better
place. However, it's my understanding that NIMAS, which is designed for
K-12 and not higher education, is a cut down version of XML. These files
may require more work to make them as functional as possible. Is this
accurate?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=703573922-25022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=703573922-25022005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Also, I wonder what
you think about whether the file format provided by publishers should be
different from what campus alternate format services should provide. I'm
faced with sacrificing quality in order to get e-text out quickly. This
makes me uncomfortable because I know we could be doing a better job. But
I wonder whether campus services can ever do as well as what we should expect
from publishers.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=703573922-25022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=703573922-25022005><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Thanks!</FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Jim Marks<BR>Director of Disability Services<BR>University of
Montana-Missoula<BR>jim.marks@umontana.edu<BR><A href="http://www.umt.edu/dss"
target=_blank>http://www.umt.edu/dss</A><BR><BR> </FONT> </P>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Stewart, Ron
[mailto:ron.stewart@oregonstate.edu]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 25, 2005
8:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Robert Lee Beach<BR><B>Cc:</B>
adtech-ps@lists.oregonstate.edu; athen@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[adtech-ps] RE: more e-text discussion<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText51035 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Robert,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hope you don't mind but I would like to
share your email and my response with the group. I would not be
surprised at all, we all deal with a lot of ignorance, and maybe it is just me
but ignorance seems to be an epidemic these days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>I have had very similar
discussions when doing sessions on e-text production, and in working
with uniformed DS folks in explaining why this transition is
necessary. People want to focus the entire conversation on
why an MP3 file, or any audio file is good enough to meet the needs of the
majority of individuals with print disabilities. That is the same misguided
thinking that says audio tapes are good enough and we do not need to consider
moving to a digital medium. It also reflects the same ignorance that says
a dump of a scanned book to a cdrom, without editing is access. When
we focus on the technology instead of on the purpose for using the
technology we do a disservice to our clients and to our emerging
profession.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The position typically is
that their clients were all happy, that it is inexpensive to produce
and very portable. Things that I would agree with on the surface,
but in actuality are totally unrelated to the purpose for providing the
access in the first place, and that is to access the curriculum.
If they students choose to ignore their other options and just use a audio file
for access then that is their choice, a poor one in my opinion, but that does
not relieve us of our responsibility to show them the potentials.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Also when I hear that
users are satisfied with a limited solution, first my blood pressure goes
way up, then I have to ask what other options are provided to the
clients so that they really can see what the possibilities are and which
ones meet their individual needs. This is the same kind of thinking
error that we encounter from administrators who say we do not have a problem
because no one is complaining. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>However the question really
should be, if we are acting as professionals in the field of
access technologies; how can we provide equitable access to the curriculum for
our users that truly gives them a level playing field? As has
often been stated this can not be done with an MP3 file, it is not indexed
and does not allow for efficient use of the material, i.e. the ability to
navigate it. We can not separate the technology or delivery mechanism
from the teaching and learning process. The most successful students
are those that know how to best access the required information to complete
a required learning activity. With a text book that is done by
drilling down into the material to the exact material required, and this
can only be done with an ability to scan the material an almost impossible
task with a typical audio file.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Listening to John Grisham on
a audio book is a worthwhile leisure activity. Finding a
specific set of cause and effect relationships is a learning activity which
requires a specific set of tools and skills. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Now for your
question: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>XML is a meta-data based information
structuring system, not really just a data delivery mechanism. It allows
for the delivery of information into whatever format is desired as long as
the appropriate data structure is contained in the underlying database, and
the retrieval tool supports the data structure. For example, if I
had the entire electronic textbook in my XML based book repository I could
query the system for the book, and have it provided as an MP3 file or as a
structured e-text file so that it could be brailed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron Stewart</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Robert Lee Beach
[mailto:rbeach@toto.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 2/25/2005 6:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Stewart, Ron<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [adtech-ps] FW: [DSSHE-L] How many blind
objections to PDFs arebased on...<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>I really like that this person pointed out one fact. Many
of the people<BR>producing e-text are not users themselves. You'd be
surprised how many<BR>people I've argued with regarding the importance of
indexing audio text.<BR>They think they can just begin recording, turn the tape
over when they ge<BR>to the end, and keep going. Or, if producing on CD,
they don't see the<BR>need for marking the beging of pages with even the page
numbers, much less<BR>marking them so that each page is a separate track.
I did get one person<BR>to admit that producing whole chapters wasn't really the
best for the<BR>student, so they break the tracks into 5 or 10 minute
segments. How<BR>helpful is that? You then have to provide an index
to show what pages are<BR>included in each segment or the user still cannot find
what they're looking<BR>for without going through the whole CD.<BR><BR>Now, I
have a question. I know XML can be displayed through a browser, but<BR>how
effective is it for production into, say, audio CD, MP3, or
braille?<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR><BR>I know this is going to sound a bit<BR>At
04:47 PM 2/24/2005 -0800, you wrote:<BR>>This is germane out discussion on
e-text<BR>><BR>>Ron<BR>><BR>>-----Original Message-----<BR>>From:
Disabled Student Services in Higher Education<BR>>[<A
href="mailto:DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU">mailto:DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU</A>]
On Behalf Of Marks, Jim<BR>>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:03
PM<BR>>To: DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU<BR>>Subject: Re: [DSSHE-L] How
many blind objections to PDFs are based on...<BR>><BR>>I'm glad Carol
pointed out that PDF files are a problem for people with<BR>>learning
disabilities. My office has been discussing whether there is
a<BR>>difference in e-text for students with learning disabilities and
for<BR>>those who are blind or visually impaired. One staff member, a
person<BR>>with a learning disability that impacts her ability to read
print<BR>>effectively, said that e-text designed for blind users works very
well<BR>>for people with learning disabilities as well. Yes, many
people with<BR>>learning disabilities prefer to see the print versions of
their<BR>>textbooks, especially the visual features of print such as
graphics,<BR>>photos, etc. However, this can be easily accomplished by
reading the<BR>>print book along with the e-text. We don't really have
to get fancy<BR>>with the technology by creating e-text with all the visual
features<BR>>built in. If we build e-text that works for blind users,
then it is<BR>>universally accessible. This is very important to
consider since the<BR>>numbers of college students with learning disabilities
hover around 2 to<BR>>4 percent of students with disabilities while the blind
and visually<BR>>impaired comprise about one half of one percent of students
with<BR>>disabilities. In addition, many of the people who are
designing e-text<BR>>are not users of e-text. They bring lots of talent
to the process, but<BR>>they also bring in paradigms biased to visual access
to print. If<BR>>e-text somehow splits into two camps, one for visual
access and one for<BR>>non-visual, it could damage accessibility for all
people with print<BR>>disabilities. There's no problem finding
something that works according<BR>>to the needs and abilities of a particular
individual, but we should<BR>>take care not to create an industry standard
that won't work for<BR>>everyone. For example, my office sometimes does
create PDF files, the<BR>>inaccessible type, that we give students to use
with WYNN or Kurzweil<BR>>3000. WYNN and Kurzweil easily convert the
PDF files, and students can<BR>>sometimes use the exact view features of
these programs to see an image<BR>>of the book while the program reads what
it thinks the image is saying.<BR>>We do not build accessible PDF documents,
although some colleges and<BR>>universities do this routinely. We don't
because other file formats<BR>>work so much better for everyone. Much
depends on how the end user<BR>>reads the e-text. Point here is that
PDF works for some, but not all.<BR>>And, again, please ask for XML version
of e-text from publishers. XML<BR>>affords the highest degree of
universal accessibility, and it's the<BR>>standard for K-12 education.
Makes sense that higher education would do<BR>>the
same.<BR>><BR>><BR>>Jim Marks<BR>>Director of Disability
Services<BR>>University of
Montana-Missoula<BR>>jim.marks@umontana.edu<BR>><A
href="http://www.umt.edu/dss">http://www.umt.edu/dss</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-----Original
Message-----<BR>>From: CManchester [<A
href="mailto:cmanchester@HOWARDCC.EDU">mailto:cmanchester@HOWARDCC.EDU</A>]<BR>>Sent:
Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:47 PM<BR>>To:
DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU<BR>>Subject: Re: How many blind objections to
PDFs are based on...<BR>><BR>><BR>>It's a problem for LD users
also.<BR>><BR>>Carol Manchester<BR>><BR>>This list is intended to
serve as a forum for professionals involved in<BR>>the delivery of services
to students with disabilities in higher<BR>>education. Any commercial posts
or posts that are deemed by the<BR>>listowner to be inappropriate for the
list will result in the poster<BR>>being removed from the
list.<BR>><BR>>To sign off the list, send a message to<BR>>*
listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu<BR>>* with the message<BR>>* signoff
dsshe-l<BR>>To search the archives, go to<BR>><A
href="http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/dsshe-l.html">http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/dsshe-l.html</A><BR>>Questions?
Contact Listowner Dan Ryan at
dryan@buffalo.edu<BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>adtech-ps
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