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<TITLE>Re: [adtech-ps] FW: [DSSHE-L] How many blind objections to PDFs arebased on...</TITLE>
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<DIV id=idOWAReplyText51035 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Robert,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hope you don't mind but I would like to
share your email and my response with the group. I would not be
surprised at all, we all deal with a lot of ignorance, and maybe it is just me
but ignorance seems to be an epidemic these days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>I have had very similar
discussions when doing sessions on e-text production, and in working
with uniformed DS folks in explaining why this transition is
necessary. People want to focus the entire conversation on
why an MP3 file, or any audio file is good enough to meet the needs of the
majority of individuals with print disabilities. That is the same misguided
thinking that says audio tapes are good enough and we do not need to consider
moving to a digital medium. It also reflects the same ignorance that says
a dump of a scanned book to a cdrom, without editing is access. When
we focus on the technology instead of on the purpose for using the
technology we do a disservice to our clients and to our emerging
profession.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The position typically is
that their clients were all happy, that it is inexpensive to produce
and very portable. Things that I would agree with on the surface,
but in actuality are totally unrelated to the purpose for providing the
access in the first place, and that is to access the curriculum.
If they students choose to ignore their other options and just use a audio file
for access then that is their choice, a poor one in my opinion, but that does
not relieve us of our responsibility to show them the potentials.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Also when I hear that
users are satisfied with a limited solution, first my blood pressure goes
way up, then I have to ask what other options are provided to the
clients so that they really can see what the possibilities are and which
ones meet their individual needs. This is the same kind of thinking
error that we encounter from administrators who say we do not have a problem
because no one is complaining. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>However the question really
should be, if we are acting as professionals in the field of
access technologies; how can we provide equitable access to the curriculum for
our users that truly gives them a level playing field? As has
often been stated this can not be done with an MP3 file, it is not indexed
and does not allow for efficient use of the material, i.e. the ability to
navigate it. We can not separate the technology or delivery mechanism
from the teaching and learning process. The most successful students
are those that know how to best access the required information to complete
a required learning activity. With a text book that is done by
drilling down into the material to the exact material required, and this
can only be done with an ability to scan the material an almost impossible
task with a typical audio file.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Listening to John Grisham on
a audio book is a worthwhile leisure activity. Finding a
specific set of cause and effect relationships is a learning activity which
requires a specific set of tools and skills. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Now for your
question: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>XML is a meta-data based information
structuring system, not really just a data delivery mechanism. It allows
for the delivery of information into whatever format is desired as long as
the appropriate data structure is contained in the underlying database, and
the retrieval tool supports the data structure. For example, if I
had the entire electronic textbook in my XML based book repository I could
query the system for the book, and have it provided as an MP3 file or as a
structured e-text file so that it could be brailed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron Stewart</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Robert Lee Beach
[mailto:rbeach@toto.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 2/25/2005 6:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Stewart, Ron<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [adtech-ps] FW: [DSSHE-L] How many blind
objections to PDFs arebased on...<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>I really like that this person pointed out one fact. Many
of the people<BR>producing e-text are not users themselves. You'd be
surprised how many<BR>people I've argued with regarding the importance of
indexing audio text.<BR>They think they can just begin recording, turn the tape
over when they ge<BR>to the end, and keep going. Or, if producing on CD,
they don't see the<BR>need for marking the beging of pages with even the page
numbers, much less<BR>marking them so that each page is a separate track.
I did get one person<BR>to admit that producing whole chapters wasn't really the
best for the<BR>student, so they break the tracks into 5 or 10 minute
segments. How<BR>helpful is that? You then have to provide an index
to show what pages are<BR>included in each segment or the user still cannot find
what they're looking<BR>for without going through the whole CD.<BR><BR>Now, I
have a question. I know XML can be displayed through a browser, but<BR>how
effective is it for production into, say, audio CD, MP3, or
braille?<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR><BR>I know this is going to sound a bit<BR>At
04:47 PM 2/24/2005 -0800, you wrote:<BR>>This is germane out discussion on
e-text<BR>><BR>>Ron<BR>><BR>>-----Original Message-----<BR>>From:
Disabled Student Services in Higher Education<BR>>[<A
href="mailto:DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU">mailto:DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU</A>]
On Behalf Of Marks, Jim<BR>>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:03
PM<BR>>To: DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU<BR>>Subject: Re: [DSSHE-L] How
many blind objections to PDFs are based on...<BR>><BR>>I'm glad Carol
pointed out that PDF files are a problem for people with<BR>>learning
disabilities. My office has been discussing whether there is
a<BR>>difference in e-text for students with learning disabilities and
for<BR>>those who are blind or visually impaired. One staff member, a
person<BR>>with a learning disability that impacts her ability to read
print<BR>>effectively, said that e-text designed for blind users works very
well<BR>>for people with learning disabilities as well. Yes, many
people with<BR>>learning disabilities prefer to see the print versions of
their<BR>>textbooks, especially the visual features of print such as
graphics,<BR>>photos, etc. However, this can be easily accomplished by
reading the<BR>>print book along with the e-text. We don't really have
to get fancy<BR>>with the technology by creating e-text with all the visual
features<BR>>built in. If we build e-text that works for blind users,
then it is<BR>>universally accessible. This is very important to
consider since the<BR>>numbers of college students with learning disabilities
hover around 2 to<BR>>4 percent of students with disabilities while the blind
and visually<BR>>impaired comprise about one half of one percent of students
with<BR>>disabilities. In addition, many of the people who are
designing e-text<BR>>are not users of e-text. They bring lots of talent
to the process, but<BR>>they also bring in paradigms biased to visual access
to print. If<BR>>e-text somehow splits into two camps, one for visual
access and one for<BR>>non-visual, it could damage accessibility for all
people with print<BR>>disabilities. There's no problem finding
something that works according<BR>>to the needs and abilities of a particular
individual, but we should<BR>>take care not to create an industry standard
that won't work for<BR>>everyone. For example, my office sometimes does
create PDF files, the<BR>>inaccessible type, that we give students to use
with WYNN or Kurzweil<BR>>3000. WYNN and Kurzweil easily convert the
PDF files, and students can<BR>>sometimes use the exact view features of
these programs to see an image<BR>>of the book while the program reads what
it thinks the image is saying.<BR>>We do not build accessible PDF documents,
although some colleges and<BR>>universities do this routinely. We don't
because other file formats<BR>>work so much better for everyone. Much
depends on how the end user<BR>>reads the e-text. Point here is that
PDF works for some, but not all.<BR>>And, again, please ask for XML version
of e-text from publishers. XML<BR>>affords the highest degree of
universal accessibility, and it's the<BR>>standard for K-12 education.
Makes sense that higher education would do<BR>>the
same.<BR>><BR>><BR>>Jim Marks<BR>>Director of Disability
Services<BR>>University of
Montana-Missoula<BR>>jim.marks@umontana.edu<BR>><A
href="http://www.umt.edu/dss">http://www.umt.edu/dss</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-----Original
Message-----<BR>>From: CManchester [<A
href="mailto:cmanchester@HOWARDCC.EDU">mailto:cmanchester@HOWARDCC.EDU</A>]<BR>>Sent:
Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:47 PM<BR>>To:
DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU<BR>>Subject: Re: How many blind objections to
PDFs are based on...<BR>><BR>><BR>>It's a problem for LD users
also.<BR>><BR>>Carol Manchester<BR>><BR>>This list is intended to
serve as a forum for professionals involved in<BR>>the delivery of services
to students with disabilities in higher<BR>>education. Any commercial posts
or posts that are deemed by the<BR>>listowner to be inappropriate for the
list will result in the poster<BR>>being removed from the
list.<BR>><BR>>To sign off the list, send a message to<BR>>*
listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu<BR>>* with the message<BR>>* signoff
dsshe-l<BR>>To search the archives, go to<BR>><A
href="http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/dsshe-l.html">http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/dsshe-l.html</A><BR>>Questions?
Contact Listowner Dan Ryan at
dryan@buffalo.edu<BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>adtech-ps
mailing list<BR>>adtech-ps@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR>><A
href="http://lists.oregonstate.edu/mailman/listinfo/adtech-ps">http://lists.oregonstate.edu/mailman/listinfo/adtech-ps</A><BR>><BR>>To
unsubscribe, send a message
to:<BR>>adtech-ps-request@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR>>with the word
"unsubscribe" in the body.<BR>><BR>><BR>Robert Lee Beach, Assistive
Technology Specialist<BR>Kansas City Kansas Community College<BR>7250 State
Avenue<BR>Kansas City, KS 66112<BR>Phone: (913) 288-7671<BR>Fax:
(913) 288-7678<BR><A
href="http://www.kckcc.edu/faculty/beach/">http://www.kckcc.edu/faculty/beach/</A><BR>
E-Mail:
rbeach@toto.net<BR></FONT></P></DIV>
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