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<DIV id=idOWAReplyText52640 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Yes, but we need to make sure
that this simple and basic step of editing occurs which in most instances that I
have encountered does not. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Hopefully the E-Text best
practices group that I am coordinating for AHEAD will in the next year or so
help to greatly educate the masses.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> adtech-ps-bounces@lists.oregonstate.edu on
behalf of Richard Jones<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 2/25/2005 8:30 AM<BR><B>Cc:</B>
adtech-ps@lists.oregonstate.edu; athen@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: [adtech-ps] RE: more e-text discussion<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=397250916-25022005>Dear
Ron Stewart and Adtech-ps,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=397250916-25022005>I
completely agree with you that a structured audio file, i.e. DAISY, based on
XML, is an appropriate accommodation for students with
disabilities. BTW, Daisy is recorded with MP3 data
compression. I would like to add that you can obtain a minimal
form of navigation with MP3 files if they are created properly.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=397250916-25022005>If the
text is being read into an MP3 recorder and the reader records each page as
a separate track, you will be able to distinguish pages. That is the only
general navigational technique that I am aware of for a standard MP3
file. This is still not as accessible as a four track tape, with
beeps. Still it is something and may be useful for some
students. I have used this with students who want a CD/MP3
based accommodation.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=397250916-25022005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Richard Jones<BR>Assistant Director<BR>Disability Resource
Center<BR>Arizona State University<BR><BR>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This
e-mail message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which
it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and
exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you believe you have
received this e-mail in error please notify the sender.<BR></FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
adtech-ps-bounces@lists.oregonstate.edu
[mailto:adtech-ps-bounces@lists.oregonstate.edu]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stewart,
Ron<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 25, 2005 8:48 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Robert Lee
Beach<BR><B>Cc:</B> adtech-ps@lists.oregonstate.edu;
athen@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> [adtech-ps] RE: more e-text
discussion<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText51035 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Robert,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hope you don't mind but I would like to
share your email and my response with the group. I would not be
surprised at all, we all deal with a lot of ignorance, and maybe it is just me
but ignorance seems to be an epidemic these days.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>I have had very similar
discussions when doing sessions on e-text production, and in working
with uniformed DS folks in explaining why this transition is
necessary. People want to focus the
entire conversation on why an MP3 file, or any audio file is
good enough to meet the needs of the majority of individuals with print
disabilities. That is the same misguided thinking that says audio tapes
are good enough and we do not need to consider moving to a digital
medium. It also reflects the same ignorance that says a dump of a
scanned book to a cdrom, without editing is access. When we focus
on the technology instead of on the purpose for using the technology we
do a disservice to our clients and to our emerging profession.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The position typically is
that their clients were all happy, that it is inexpensive to produce
and very portable. Things that I would agree with on the surface,
but in actuality are totally unrelated to the purpose for providing the
access in the first place, and that is to access the
curriculum. If they students choose to ignore their other options and just use
a audio file for access then that is their choice, a poor one in my opinion,
but that does not relieve us of our responsibility to show them the
potentials.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Also when I hear that
users are satisfied with a limited solution, first my blood pressure goes
way up, then I have to ask what other options are provided to
the clients so that they really can see what the possibilities are and
which ones meet their individual needs. This is the same kind of
thinking error that we encounter from administrators who say we do not have a
problem because no one is complaining. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>However the question really
should be, if we are acting as professionals in the field of
access technologies; how can we provide equitable access to the curriculum for
our users that truly gives them a level playing field? As has
often been stated this can not be done with an MP3 file, it is not
indexed and does not allow for efficient use of the material, i.e. the ability
to navigate it. We can not separate the technology or delivery
mechanism from the teaching and learning process. The most
successful students are those that know how to best access the required
information to complete a required learning activity. With a text
book that is done by drilling down into the material to the exact
material required, and this can only be done with an ability to scan
the material an almost impossible task with a typical audio
file.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Listening to John Grisham
on a audio book is a worthwhile leisure activity. Finding a
specific set of cause and effect relationships is a learning
activity which requires a specific set of tools and
skills. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Now for your
question: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>XML is a meta-data based information
structuring system, not really just a data delivery mechanism. It allows
for the delivery of information into whatever format is desired as long as
the appropriate data structure is contained in the underlying database,
and the retrieval tool supports the data structure. For example, if I
had the entire electronic textbook in my XML based book repository I
could query the system for the book, and have it provided as an MP3 file or as
a structured e-text file so that it could be brailed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron Stewart</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Robert Lee Beach
[mailto:rbeach@toto.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 2/25/2005 6:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Stewart, Ron<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [adtech-ps] FW: [DSSHE-L] How many blind
objections to PDFs arebased on...<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>I really like that this person pointed out one fact.
Many of the people<BR>producing e-text are not users themselves. You'd
be surprised how many<BR>people I've argued with regarding the importance of
indexing audio text.<BR>They think they can just begin recording, turn the
tape over when they ge<BR>to the end, and keep going. Or, if producing
on CD, they don't see the<BR>need for marking the beging of pages with even
the page numbers, much less<BR>marking them so that each page is a separate
track. I did get one person<BR>to admit that producing whole chapters
wasn't really the best for the<BR>student, so they break the tracks into 5 or
10 minute segments. How<BR>helpful is that? You then have to
provide an index to show what pages are<BR>included in each segment or the
user still cannot find what they're looking<BR>for without going through the
whole CD.<BR><BR>Now, I have a question. I know XML can be displayed
through a browser, but<BR>how effective is it for production into, say, audio
CD, MP3, or braille?<BR><BR>Thanks.<BR><BR><BR>I know this is going to sound a
bit<BR>At 04:47 PM 2/24/2005 -0800, you wrote:<BR>>This is germane out
discussion on e-text<BR>><BR>>Ron<BR>><BR>>-----Original
Message-----<BR>>From: Disabled Student Services in Higher
Education<BR>>[<A
href="mailto:DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU">mailto:DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU</A>]
On Behalf Of Marks, Jim<BR>>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:03
PM<BR>>To: DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU<BR>>Subject: Re: [DSSHE-L] How
many blind objections to PDFs are based on...<BR>><BR>>I'm glad Carol
pointed out that PDF files are a problem for people with<BR>>learning
disabilities. My office has been discussing whether there is
a<BR>>difference in e-text for students with learning disabilities and
for<BR>>those who are blind or visually impaired. One staff member, a
person<BR>>with a learning disability that impacts her ability to read
print<BR>>effectively, said that e-text designed for blind users works very
well<BR>>for people with learning disabilities as well. Yes, many
people with<BR>>learning disabilities prefer to see the print versions of
their<BR>>textbooks, especially the visual features of print such as
graphics,<BR>>photos, etc. However, this can be easily accomplished
by reading the<BR>>print book along with the e-text. We don't really
have to get fancy<BR>>with the technology by creating e-text with all the
visual features<BR>>built in. If we build e-text that works for blind
users, then it is<BR>>universally accessible. This is very important
to consider since the<BR>>numbers of college students with learning
disabilities hover around 2 to<BR>>4 percent of students with disabilities
while the blind and visually<BR>>impaired comprise about one half of one
percent of students with<BR>>disabilities. In addition, many of the
people who are designing e-text<BR>>are not users of e-text. They
bring lots of talent to the process, but<BR>>they also bring in paradigms
biased to visual access to print. If<BR>>e-text somehow splits into
two camps, one for visual access and one for<BR>>non-visual, it could
damage accessibility for all people with print<BR>>disabilities.
There's no problem finding something that works according<BR>>to the needs
and abilities of a particular individual, but we should<BR>>take care not
to create an industry standard that won't work for<BR>>everyone. For
example, my office sometimes does create PDF files, the<BR>>inaccessible
type, that we give students to use with WYNN or Kurzweil<BR>>3000.
WYNN and Kurzweil easily convert the PDF files, and students
can<BR>>sometimes use the exact view features of these programs to see an
image<BR>>of the book while the program reads what it thinks the image is
saying.<BR>>We do not build accessible PDF documents, although some
colleges and<BR>>universities do this routinely. We don't because
other file formats<BR>>work so much better for everyone. Much depends
on how the end user<BR>>reads the e-text. Point here is that PDF
works for some, but not all.<BR>>And, again, please ask for XML version of
e-text from publishers. XML<BR>>affords the highest degree of
universal accessibility, and it's the<BR>>standard for K-12
education. Makes sense that higher education would do<BR>>the
same.<BR>><BR>><BR>>Jim Marks<BR>>Director of Disability
Services<BR>>University of
Montana-Missoula<BR>>jim.marks@umontana.edu<BR>><A
href="http://www.umt.edu/dss">http://www.umt.edu/dss</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>-----Original
Message-----<BR>>From: CManchester [<A
href="mailto:cmanchester@HOWARDCC.EDU">mailto:cmanchester@HOWARDCC.EDU</A>]<BR>>Sent:
Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:47 PM<BR>>To:
DSSHE-L@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU<BR>>Subject: Re: How many blind objections to
PDFs are based on...<BR>><BR>><BR>>It's a problem for LD users
also.<BR>><BR>>Carol Manchester<BR>><BR>>This list is intended to
serve as a forum for professionals involved in<BR>>the delivery of services
to students with disabilities in higher<BR>>education. Any commercial posts
or posts that are deemed by the<BR>>listowner to be inappropriate for the
list will result in the poster<BR>>being removed from the
list.<BR>><BR>>To sign off the list, send a message to<BR>>*
listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu<BR>>* with the message<BR>>* signoff
dsshe-l<BR>>To search the archives, go to<BR>><A
href="http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/dsshe-l.html">http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/dsshe-l.html</A><BR>>Questions?
Contact Listowner Dan Ryan at
dryan@buffalo.edu<BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>>adtech-ps
mailing list<BR>>adtech-ps@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR>><A
href="http://lists.oregonstate.edu/mailman/listinfo/adtech-ps">http://lists.oregonstate.edu/mailman/listinfo/adtech-ps</A><BR>><BR>>To
unsubscribe, send a message
to:<BR>>adtech-ps-request@lists.oregonstate.edu<BR>>with the word
"unsubscribe" in the body.<BR>><BR>><BR>Robert Lee Beach, Assistive
Technology Specialist<BR>Kansas City Kansas Community College<BR>7250 State
Avenue<BR>Kansas City, KS 66112<BR>Phone: (913) 288-7671<BR>Fax:
(913) 288-7678<BR><A
href="http://www.kckcc.edu/faculty/beach/">http://www.kckcc.edu/faculty/beach/</A><BR>
E-Mail:
rbeach@toto.net<BR></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>