<div dir="ltr">Hello,<div><br></div><div>Math is a complex area for me, but I do think that any authoring software should be robust and include all accessibility conventions. This is especially important for Universal Design as applies to Instructors, Librarians, and many others authoring content digitally. Most people will not take the time to do an unreasonable amount of steps while authoring material, the more developers build and code for accessibility the better. </div><div><br></div><div>Have a great day,</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><p style="font-size:12.8000001907349px;vertical-align:baseline;line-height:21px;font-family:'Segoe UI',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;margin:0px;outline:0px;border:0px;padding:0px;background-color:transparent"><font color="#000000"><b><a href="http://www.pdx.edu/oai/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank"><img src="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/329486/OAI_SigPic.png"></a><br></b></font></p><p style="vertical-align:baseline;line-height:21px;font-family:'Segoe UI',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;margin:0px;outline:0px;border:0px;padding:0px;background-color:transparent"><font color="#000000" size="2"><b>Samantha Johns</b></font></p><p style="vertical-align:baseline;line-height:21px;font-family:'Segoe UI',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;margin:0px;outline:0px;border:0px;padding:0px;background-color:transparent"><font size="2"><font color="#000000"><i>Accessibility & </i></font><i style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Course Support Specialist </i></font></p><p style="vertical-align:baseline;line-height:21px;font-family:'Segoe UI',helvetica,arial,sans-serif;margin:0px;outline:0px;border:0px;padding:0px;background-color:transparent"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:normal"><font size="2">Portland State University</font></span></p></div><font color="#000000" size="2">1825 SW Broadway</font></div><div><font color="#000000" size="2">Smith Memorial Student Union, Mezzanine 209<br>Portland OR 97201<br>(503) 725-2754<br></font></div><div><span style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;line-height:1.4"><font size="2"><br></font></span></div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Emma Cliffe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:E.H.Cliffe@bath.ac.uk" target="_blank">E.H.Cliffe@bath.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
I am not sure what this has to do with MathType? I typed (and edited via keyboard) the equations directly in the Google Doc (document, not presentation) via the web interface and using the inbuilt equation editor. This uses a LaTeX type structured format -
similar to typing equations directly into a Word document. Hence I know that the document contains the structure of the equation - it is rendered directly so there is almost certainly a mark up language involved somewhere.
<br>
<br>
In fact we can confirm this as the export mechanism for docx format from Google Docs produces OMML and so the equations are preserved in docx. Since OMML can be transformed to MathML via stylesheets they do effectively have the MathML but have chosen not to
insert this into the EPub. They also have the LaTeX like linear format I typed which they have chosen not to retain in the document to preserve the equation and which they have chosen not to insert as an alt tag where they are generating images. The images
which are generated could have been SVG which would at least have scaled well. <br>
<br>
The reasons I care:<br>
* I think it is reasonable to expect that text content (equations are text!) I type into a document is not thrown away without warning when I export that document to another format (I would expect to see the linear format even in the .txt export - why not?).
These types of lossy conversions are how we end up with incomplete, inaccessible, poor quality or unusable scientific or mathematical documents in the first place. Maths students and staff I work with certainly see equations as text, particularly if they typed
the equation, and they expect tools, conversions, exports etc. to work with them as if they were text.
<br>
<br>
* As Lisa said, if Google using EPub builds widespread buy in or helps to then I would like that buy in to include scientific and mathematical content and the tools to appropriately create and render it well for all. This sort of poor quality output is more
likely to build the idea that EPub is not suitable for this content when in fact it is.
<br>
<br>
* Students use Google docs to collaborate on documents including scientific and mathematical content. This may not be sensible but it tends to happen (I have done this myself and then wished I could get anything which wasn't docx out of it). They sometimes
then ask how they might export that document for their own purposes afterwards. Since all the export formats except docx currently throw away equation content I had hoped that EPub would provide another option. Now I know I should advise them that they must
store and use docx and then do any transforms they want/need from there. If they are aiming for an e-book format, for whatever reason, this adds extra levels of conversion and every conversion of mathematical content introduces the risk of error.
<br>
<br>
I am fully aware of the methods mentioned below and I certainly wouldn't use Google docs as a formatting engine when creating accessible documents. However, when the document is already in that format and a student asks how to independently proceed from there
it is helpful to be able to advise appropriately. <br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Emma<span class=""><br>
<br>
Mathematics Resource Centre Development Officer<br>
University of Bath<br>
<br>
</span><div><div class="h5"><div>On 08/03/16 22:40, Wink Harner wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi ATHENITES,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Today, I am masquerading as the magic math fairy. Waving my magic wand, I'm going to bonk on the Google Docs export to EPUB icon.**BING!** Whoops, Math Type
equations have to be cut and pasted into a Google Docs, at which point they are converted to a GIF file, which all of us know "looks nice" but is generally inaccessible. Well shoot, I had to put that darn "varela" away. Bonking my math wand on Google docs
just doesn’t work, doggone it all. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There are a couple of problems in converting to EPUB using Google Docs as the formatting engine. First of all there are easier ways to create accessible documents
and convert to EPUB format – Caliber (free) is one among many applications which does a fine job than using Google Docs as the formatting engine. Google Docs is a shell program which makes you think you are working in Microsoft Word when in fact you are not.
Which is why MathType doesn't work as efficiently or at all in this arena. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What really confuses me is why any of us are even considering using EPUB for math output, when there is such a simple, somewhat direct (simple does not equal
easy or fast!) route to take: if you want it to look nice, leave it alone in the PDF file. If it needs to be in text-to-speech, run the PDF through an OCR conversion using Infnty OCR software for the math & either Abbyy Fine Reader or Omnipage for the text
portions, save into a Microsoft or a tagged PDF file, and for a student who has a reading disability, use the free CAR reader from Central Washington University, which renders math nicely in text-to-speech. Or for the student who is blind or visually impaired,
and needs to use a screen reader such as JAWS or NVDA, retype using MathType. Or, you can convert to LaTex or Nemeth and export to Braille. The CAR text-to-speech reader is not yet available in the iDevice world, but it does nicely in the android and the PC
World, providing a good text-to-speech output while simultaneously highlighting the math. This is good learning support for students who have reading disabilities.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I am really struggling over why we think that every platform ought to cover every color, shade, and size of disability. Surely, we have learned enough by now
to know that you pick the right tool for the job, not the other way around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If you're looking at portability, then by all means make the math look nice on a small screen. But portability is only applicable as an accommodation under
certain circumstances, for example, a student who cannot carry all of the books without succumbing to a tipping factor. Or someone who cannot physically turn the pages would benefit from an electronic book format.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I have enclosed (below) , a selection from a Google how-to site specifically regarding formatting math in Google Docs:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<h4><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">"</span>There is no built-in equation capability in Google Docs Presentations, but you can still use MathType to create equations for your presentations.<u></u><u></u></h4>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal">
In MathType, in the<b> Size</b> menu choose<b> Define</b>, and<b> </b>set the font size equal to what you're using in Google Docs. Default font size in Google Docs presentations is 32pt.<u></u><u></u>
</li><li class="MsoNormal">
In MathType's <b>Preferences</b> menu choose <b>Web and GIF Preferences</b>. Leave everything at its default setting except in the center section, click to place a checkmark in the box next to
<b>Smooth edges (anti-aliasing)</b>.<u></u><u></u> </li><li class="MsoNormal">
Create your equation and save it to your computer as a GIF image. Use the <b>Save</b> command in the
<b>File </b>menu for this, being careful to note where on your computer you saved it (Desktop is convenient). To save as GIF, when the
<b>Save As</b> dialog is open, check the<b> Save as type</b> section to make sure it says<b> Graphics Interchange Format</b>.<u></u><u></u>
</li><li class="MsoNormal">
In Google Docs, click the <b>Insert Image</b> icon on the toolbar (or use the menu command), then click
<b>Browse</b> to find the image on your computer. When you find it, click <b>Open</b>, then back in the
<b>Insert Image</b> dialog, click <b>OK</b>.<u></u><u></u> </li><li class="MsoNormal">
Move the image into position. The size of the equation should be about right, but if you do need to resize it, drag one of the corners
<b>while holding down the Shift key</b>, and it will retain the proper proportion of the equation."<u></u><u></u>
</li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Here's the link:</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="https://sites.google.com/a/d219.org/pdc/productivity/mathtype" target="_blank"></a><a href="https://sites.google.com/a/d219.org/pdc/productivity/mathtype" target="_blank">https://sites.google.com/a/d219.org/pdc/productivity/mathtype</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Note: this method is designed for presentations not necessarily EPUB export, but it will not render accessible
math in any format. It may render math that will fit on an EPUB page, but that only means it's portable, not accessible</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I encourage all of you to please go back to the drawing board and run down 1. Who is your student?; 2. What is
the student's disability?; 3. What is the student's preferred electronic text? (PDF, text-to-speech, tagged PDF, LaTex, Nemeth code…; 4. How will they access the text? What equipment or technology do they have? Once you've answered these questions, the route
your format takes will become evident. Each one is different, and sadly there is no easy, quick solution for any of this.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">As always, I am open to input and flogging from the listserv (enlightenment) if my information is not correct.
I would love to be updated if there is in fact a route to math accessibility in Google Docs to EPUB.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Respectfully,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Wink<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Wink Harner<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Adaptive Technology Consulting & Training<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Alternative Text & Media Production<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The Foreigntype<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:foreigntype@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"></span></a><a href="mailto:foreigntype@gmail.com" target="_blank">foreigntype@gmail.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:winkharner1113@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue"></span></a><a href="mailto:winkharner1113@gmail.com" target="_blank">winkharner1113@gmail.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>(Disclaimer: this email was dictated with Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive any quirks, mis-recognitions, or omissions.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> athen-list [<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman13.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman13.u.washington.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lisa Brandt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2016 1:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network; Samantha Johns<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Epub Format in Google Docs<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Darn, the math issues are indeed disappointing. I hope they'll make that a priority.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">On Tue, 08 Mar 2016 12:49:22 -0800, Samantha Johns <</span><a href="mailto:samanj@pdx.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></a><a href="mailto:samanj@pdx.edu" target="_blank">samanj@pdx.edu</a><span style="font-size:10.0pt">>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Hello, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Thank you Lisa for pointing that this could bring more attention to this format. And thank you Emma, yes I agree this may not support math equations.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I did test that if you format the Doc in Google with Heading, and Alt text for image, then export to Epub it does retain formatting and read the Alt Text. So that's a plus!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.75pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px">
<a href="http://www.pdx.edu/oai/" target="_blank"><b><span><img alt="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/329486/OAI_SigPic.png" height="19" width="319" border="0"></span></b></a><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.75pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px">
<b><span>Samantha Johns</span></b><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:15.75pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px">
<i><span>Accessibility & Course Support Specialist </span></i><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Portland State University</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Smith Memorial Student Union, Mezzanine 209<br>
Portland OR 97201<br>
<a href="tel:%28503%29%20725-2754" value="+15037252754" target="_blank">(503) 725-2754</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Emma Cliffe <</span><a href="mailto:E.H.Cliffe@bath.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span></a><a href="mailto:E.H.Cliffe@bath.ac.uk" target="_blank">E.H.Cliffe@bath.ac.uk</a><span style="font-size:10.0pt">>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Hello,<br>
<br>
Just a quick note since I was curious and had a look: I don't have full test software here at home but from what I could see from unzipping the EPub and looking at the source code the equations are stored as images (png) and are included in the EPub without
alternative text. This means that the images won't scale well (may also align badly and will reflow badly) and there is nothing to be read aloud.
<br>
<br>
This is about as far away from good practice as they can get (MathML with SVG and MathSpeak fallback in EPub3
</span><a href="http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/guidelines/content/mathml/desc.php" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/guidelines/content/mathml/desc.php</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt">).
I didn't try anything beyond that... I would be wondering about other more complex structural elements though.
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Best wishes,<br>
Emma Cliffe<br>
<br>
Mathematics Resource Centre Development Officer<br>
University of Bath<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">On 08/03/16 17:04, Samantha Johns wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Hello Athen Community, <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">As of recently it looks like Google Docs now has the option to export to Epub format. I am wondering what people think about the benefits of this and recommendations? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Have a great day!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p><a href="http://www.pdx.edu/oai/" target="_blank"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1155cc;text-decoration:none"><img alt="https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/329486/OAI_SigPic.png" height="32" width="32" border="0"></span></b></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Samantha Johns</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Accessibility & Course Support Specialist </span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Portland State University</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">1825 SW Broadway</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Smith Memorial Student Union, Mezzanine 209<br>
Portland OR 97201<br>
</span><a href="tel:%28503%29%20725-2754" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">(503) 725-2754</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
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_______________________________________________<br>
athen-list mailing list<br>
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</span><a href="http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">--<br>
Lisa Brandt, PCC Disability Services<br>
Accessibility Technician<br>
Alternate Media Formats Technician<br>
SE SCOMM 112 | SY CC 260<br>
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Assistive Technology Support and Appointments:<br>
</span><a href="mailto:access-tech-group@pcc.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">access-tech-group@pcc.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
971-722-TECH <a href="tel:%28971-722-8324" value="+19717228324" target="_blank">(971-722-8324</a>)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<a href="http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mailman13.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list</a><br>
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