<div dir="ltr"><div>That article puts the onus on browsers. AT still has it handled for the most part.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not trolling, really. We have HTML standards and ARIA -- and AT can know that stuff if it's coded properly. It's the OS and app builders who are falling short, in my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>Discuss :)</div><div><br></div><div>-*- Dan<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 7:31 AM, Deborah Armstrong <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:armstrongdeborah@fhda.edu" target="_blank">armstrongdeborah@fhda.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I respectfully disagree. Screen readers still largely have a use case of a static web page. They don’t cope well when a page changes constantly. All geographic
relationships between pieces of data are lost as it’s displayed in a flat representation – see this blog post for clarification:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
<a href="https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/" target="_blank">
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/<wbr>09/29/rethinking-web-<wbr>accessibility-on-windows/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">They ignore some clickable elements. They tell the user that he’s focused on an edit box when he isn’t. Various browser and screen reader combinations give different
results. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The very fact that there are three different modes of JAWS to access a web page, forms mode, virtual cursor and application mode and the idea that the user needs
to understand the concepts of HTML (navigate to the third list to find your homework assignment!) makes the web more confusing for the screen reader user than working say with something simple like Wordpad.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Now take a magnification user. I was just helping someone last week with this completely accessible page:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
<a href="http://www.accessibleworld.org" target="_blank">http://www.accessibleworld.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">and she didn’t see one of the columns at all. She was reading only half the page, because she didn’t know there was a column to the right. The screen reader user
doesn’t know there are columns at all. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">And if we’re talking about users with learning differences, consider how each web interface – online learning is a great example – is completely different. Do
you go to tasks, preferences, settings, options or profile to set up for your online class? With a busy page, where do you tell the speech to start reading? If you use a keyboard, is it alt-O, ctrl-O, shift-O, ctrl-alt-f then O or is it Alt1, then O to open
a file? I’ve seen different online apps that use these keystrokes, whereas a mouse user just clicks “Open”.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Back in the early 1990s when Alan Cooper wrote “The Inmates are running the asylum” we learned how the presence of modes and the absence of consistency in an
interface made it problematic. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">OK, so this has nothing to do with AT. But AT isn’t coping with it gracefully either; it’s giving access, but the ramp is pretty darn steep for a manual chair!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> athen-list [mailto:<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list-bounces@<wbr>mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Comden<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 23, 2018 10:53 PM<span class=""><br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Slightly OT: A concern for the future of Windows-based AT<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Deborah,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for linking the article. The following is not directed at you. And your article is not Off Topic at all.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">How about a different position -- AT has things handled. For the most part, screenreaders, TTS, STS, magnifiers -- they all understand basic underlying html.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So who is getting it wrong? The companies putting out shoddy interfaces and non-standard apps? Or the browsers? Assistive tech for the most part has it handled.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Discuss.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-*- Dan<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Deborah Armstrong <<a href="mailto:armstrongdeborah@fhda.edu" target="_blank">armstrongdeborah@fhda.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Bloomberg has an interesting story about Amy Hood, Microsoft’s CFO.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One business trend for this past decade is that a CFO is no longer a glorified accountant/budget analyst. They are now part of the senior management team – determiners of strategy
rather than implementers. Microsoft’ Q4 earnings report came out Thursday and according to Bloomberg, investors are saying Ms. Hood is the best CFO Microsoft has ever had.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One thing she’s done is take money away from legacy divisions and put it in to the cloud. Since 2002 when she was hired her goal is to move Microsoft more towards cloud-based subscription
models for their products – I’m paraphrasing Bloomberg here—previously most divisions could ask for what they wanted budget-wise and could expect to get it – that’s no longer true. Bloomberg also comments that Ms. Hood timed her start date back in 2002 to
get maximum access to the employee stock purchase plan.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So despite what we see at conferences with Microsoft’s waving of the accessibility banner, I don’t think it’s going to be smooth sailing ahead. If it doesn’t improve growth it’s
going to be ignored. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The earnings reports no longer say anything about Windows, so we can assume it is gradually going to just be a framework for a browser; already most new apps are PWAS (progressive
web apps) which means no installation, no data on your own PC, but you need to be online to access any of it.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This means that AT is going to need to get much better at dealing with progressive web apps and other online offerings. For keyboard users, there is no longer a consistent, reliable
set of keystrokes for operating web-based applications. For screen reader users, just to take one example, pressing Tab can take you out of the application and in to the address bar which is very confusing; imagine if a single and frequently used keystroke
could dump you out of the operating system! For magnification users, the lack of standards in a web-based interface means that you can miss important information because you weren’t looking in the right place. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The full Bloomberg story is here:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.bloomberg.com_news_articles_2018-2D07-2D16_how-2Damy-2Dhood-2Dwon-2Dback-2Dwall-2Dstreet-2Dand-2Dhelped-2Dreboot-2Dmicrosoft&d=DwMFaQ&c=xoYdONxMEGxjdvKj5bOdEOV28uakaJ20R4TjadGGZBc&r=gcvya4Pqy0A2EsMRyTgo_3n3PIn53GqWAnSNzbIFuBs&m=CcimSMQ4xO57bauN-QFhIWxzoCQCJz9__fybuJ6oxQE&s=wqlaq2O3tzSI4ZWKS_M2IOpRhyt1HJAQC3w8PzmD-4o&e=" target="_blank">
https://www.bloomberg.com/<wbr>news/articles/2018-07-16/how-<wbr>amy-hood-won-back-wall-street-<wbr>and-helped-reboot-microsoft</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">--Debee<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">-*- Dan Comden
<a href="mailto:danc@washington.edu" target="_blank">danc@uw.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> Access Technology Center
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.uw.edu_itconnect_accessibility_atl_&d=DwMFaQ&c=xoYdONxMEGxjdvKj5bOdEOV28uakaJ20R4TjadGGZBc&r=gcvya4Pqy0A2EsMRyTgo_3n3PIn53GqWAnSNzbIFuBs&m=CcimSMQ4xO57bauN-QFhIWxzoCQCJz9__fybuJ6oxQE&s=ACdqLB_jiUKN0bD2hQIeLaS3m_fSPqsQqk-Iu6t-g1o&e=" target="_blank">
www.uw.edu/itconnect/<wbr>accessibility/atl/</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> University of Washington UW Information Technology</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">-*- Dan Comden <a href="mailto:danc@washington.edu" target="_blank">danc@uw.edu</a></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> Access Technology Center <a href="http://www.uw.edu/itconnect/accessibility/atl/" target="_blank">www.uw.edu/itconnect/accessibility/atl/</a></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> University of Washington UW Information Technology</font></div><div><br></div></div>
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