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<p>On the topic of the history of InDesign and accessibility, it may
be interesting to point here out that I actually started using
InDesign specifically because unlike QuarkXpress (its primary
competitor in professional-level desktop publishing at the time),
InDesign could actually generate a tagged PDF! I think I was
comparing InDesign CS3 to QuarkXpress 7 or something?<br>
</p>
<p>Back in the mid-2000's, I was evaluating whether to migrate a
non-profit research institute over to using InDesign for their
posters and newsletters and other print materials. QuarkXpress was
the clear market leader, and the preferred software of
professionals at the time, but when I reached out to QuarkXpress
on their discussion forums and directly via email about accessible
PDFs, no one even bothered to respond. Nothing. Just
crickets....(later) Hah, I found the discussion thread, check it
out: <br>
Quark to PDf accessibility: <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://forums.quark.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16806">https://forums.quark.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16806</a><br>
</p>
<p>While Adobe InDesign at this same time not only included the
ability to associate tags with text objects, and to properly
control reading order of a PDF generated from an InDesign layout,
but they actually included an entire accessibility section in
their online materials. So, funnily enough, in my case, it was
precisely Adobe's focus and attention to accessibility that
actually drove me to use InDesign in the first place.<br>
</p>
<p>Phil.</p>
<p>Philip Kiff <br>
D4K Communications<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2021-05-10 19:03, John Gardner
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi, I do appreciate the comments and advice
from all of you on InDesign. Susan Kilmer’s comments on
origin/development explain why the problem exists. As a
businessman I well understand about investment and economic
incentive. However, as a blind person I am not so willing to
forgive Adobe for what is such a difficult application to use
accessibly. I know InDesign is a complex application designed
for making pretty paper copy. But it will not sell today
unless it can produce on-line content too, and if it had been
created with accessibility in mind, a user would not need so
much training on how to make things accessible. Depending on
the user, she may need training on using InDesign, but then
the accessibility should come moreor less automatically. It
does not, and the fact that we understand why it is
inaccessible is, in the end, just an excuse.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">John<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">ue on” job of an older inaccessible app and
there is no economic incentive for Adobe to do a re-design,
then I can understand why we are stuck with it. And will be
forever unless an economic justification comes over the
horizon.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu"><athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chagnon@pubcom.com">chagnon@pubcom.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 10, 2021 2:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Access Technology Higher Education Network'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu"><athen-list@u.washington.edu></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Making accessible info with
InDesign?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Susan K’s comments below about Adobe
InDesign are correct.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And I’ll add one more factor:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes, you can make a nearly fully accessible
PDF from an InDesign layout…If you have training in both
accessibility concepts and how to use InDesign’s advanced
tools.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">InDesign is not a word processing program
like Word and Google Docs. It’s used to create documents that
are much more complex than word processing, and it’s also a
professional typesetting and graphics design layout tool.
Given that, it’s not the type of tool you can just pick up and
learn on your own. You must be trained in how to use InDesign.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And if you want to make accessible PDFs
from InDesign, you’ll need advanced training in that process.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just like when you want to make accessible
PDFs from Word or PowerPoint, you’ll need advanced training.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are no “easy buttons” for
accessibility in any software program. The industry is decades
away from having automatically building accessibility into the
files we create.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Places to learn accessibility with Adobe
InDesign:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->My classes, of courses
and books! (shameless PR) <a
href="http://www.pubcom.com/classes" moz-do-not-send="true">
www.pubcom.com/classes</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->My conference sessions
at AHG and other industry conferences
<a href="https://accessinghigherground.org/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://accessinghigherground.org/</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Creative Pro conference
next week (I’m hosting one session there, and my colleagues
are hosting others)
<a href="https://creativeproweek.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://creativeproweek.com/</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are extremely few online video
training courses I recommend because nearly all of the ones
I’ve reviewed have either inaccurate information, insufficient
information, or really don’t understand what an accessible PDF
requires. I have a lot of people in my classes who learned
elsewhere, and then had to be retrained in the correct
methods.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>RE: Adobe’s commitment put into
perspective …<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve been connected to Adobe since John
Warnock developed scalable PostScript fonts in 1985. Never a
paid employee, but I am an unpaid beta tester, unpaid advisor,
and unpaid ACP (Adobe Community Professional) in Adobe’s
online forums. I’ve also been in similar positions with
Microsoft and over 100 other software development companies.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Although far from perfect, Adobe does have
a solid commitment to accessibility. I just spent a couple of
days in the ISO standards committees for PDFs with Adobe’s
engineers and a few dozen other software engineers from around
the world. You might not see that commitment, but I do, first
hand and up close. But I sure wish they’d do even more, of
course.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Microsoft is also dedicated to
accessibility, but I don’t see them in the ISO committees for
PDF. However, we all see M S do a fair amount of advertising
about their accessibility tools, like Immersive Reader. For
some reason, Adobe’s marketing department doesn’t do a shred
of advertising about their accessibility work, even though
it’s there.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And to be frank, no company that creates
accessible PDFs could do that without Adobe’s foundation work
on PDFs and accessibility. Adobe’s work comes first in
creating the accessibility standards for PDF as well as the
first programs, and then other companies follow Adobe’s lead.
And take all the glory, too.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In sum, it’s a mixed bag from all of our
software manufacturers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#D0CECE">— — —<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bevi Chagnon <b><span
style="color:#AEAAAA">| </span></b><span
style="color:#595959">Designer, Accessibility Technician</span><b><span
style="color:#AEAAAA"> |</span></b>
<a href="mailto:Chagnon@PubCom.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">Chagnon@PubCom.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#D0CECE">— — —<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>PubCom: <span style="color:#C00000">Technologists
for Accessible Design + Publishing</span><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">consulting <span style="color:#D0CECE">•</span>
training <span style="color:#D0CECE">
•</span> development <span style="color:#D0CECE">•</span>
design <span style="color:#D0CECE">
•</span> sec. 508 services<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Upcoming classes</b> at <a
href="http://www.pubcom.com/classes" moz-do-not-send="true">
<span style="color:#0563C1">www.PubCom.com/<b>classes</b></span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#D0CECE">— — —<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">Latest
blog-newsletter</span></a> –
<b><a
href="https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#0563C1">Simple
Guide to Writing Alt-Text</span></a></b>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a
href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Comden<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 10, 2021 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a
href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Making accessible info with
InDesign?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Adobe has had over 20 years to figure out
how to make the PDF process and products accessible. After
all this time, it is difficult to come to any conclusion
other than the company does not really care about
accessibility.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 7:22 AM Susan
Kelmer <<a href="mailto:Susan.Kelmer@colorado.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">Susan.Kelmer@colorado.edu</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:11.55pt">Okay,
to be fair...<br>
<br>
InDesign is for laying out material. It is what Adobe
Pagemaker used to be (for those of you who have been
around a while). You make text boxes and add pictures and
manipulate layout, and come up with a file that can be
printed onto paper. Ala 1990. InDesign and Pagemaker were
a replacement for the manual labor of physically creating
the paper print using exacto knives and glue and light
boards (for those that have been around even longer). In
operation, it is not intended to be a program that
provides all that accessibility for the outputted file. I
do not fault Adobe for this. There is, as far as I know,
NO program that will do this completely effectively.
<br>
<br>
If you want to have an accessible output, you will have to
do what you've always done - work it out in Adobe Acrobat
Pro on the completed file. InDesign is not a text-based
program, like Word is. Word is easy to output into a
reasonably accessible PDF. InDesign was never intended
for that purpose, and runs on an old Pagemaker backbone
that would have to be written from the ground up.<br>
<br>
And the only way for that to be a priority for companies
like Adobe is if there is money in it. No one is
clamoring to Adobe to make InDesign produce accessible
PDFs. Until they are, that won't change.<br>
<br>
Susan Kelmer <br>
Alternate Format Production Program Manager<br>
Disability Services<br>
Division of Student Affairs <br>
T 303 735 4836<br>
<a href="http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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