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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">John, what you are asking for is unreasonable and currently no application can do it. An application cannot know if a particular piece of text is supposed to be a heading, let alone what heading
level. If the layout is not a single column, an application cannot know what the expected reading order is. An application cannot know what the appropriate alternate text should be for an image because the same image may need different alternate text depending
on the context in which it appears. Don’t expect artificial intelligence to help with this to any extent in the next decade or two.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">How many job roles can you think of that require no training at all? Probably very few, and certainly none that use complex technology. So why do you think that no training at all should be required
by people who create documents? The tools are there to make documents accessible, and it only takes a day or so to learn to use them. If it’s someone’s job to create accessible documents, then they should get trained appropriately – it’s not as if it takes
long or costs much.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> athen-list <athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 May 2021 00:04<br>
<b>To:</b> chagnon@pubcom.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list@u.washington.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Making accessible info with InDesign?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi, I do appreciate the comments and advice from all of you on InDesign. Susan Kilmer’s comments on origin/development explain why the problem exists. As a businessman I well understand about investment and economic incentive.
However, as a blind person I am not so willing to forgive Adobe for what is such a difficult application to use accessibly. I know InDesign is a complex application designed for making pretty paper copy. But it will not sell today unless it can produce on-line
content too, and if it had been created with accessibility in mind, a user would not need so much training on how to make things accessible. Depending on the user, she may need training on using InDesign, but then the accessibility should come moreor less
automatically. It does not, and the fact that we understand why it is inaccessible is, in the end, just an excuse.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ue on” job of an older inaccessible app and there is no economic incentive for Adobe to do a re-design, then I can understand why we are stuck with it. And will be forever unless an economic justification comes over the
horizon. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:chagnon@pubcom.com">chagnon@pubcom.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 10, 2021 2:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Making accessible info with InDesign?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Susan K’s comments below about Adobe InDesign are correct.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And I’ll add one more factor:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Yes, you can make a nearly fully accessible PDF from an InDesign layout…If you have training in both accessibility concepts and how to use InDesign’s advanced tools.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">InDesign is not a word processing program like Word and Google Docs. It’s used to create documents that are much more complex than word processing, and it’s also a professional typesetting and graphics design layout tool.
Given that, it’s not the type of tool you can just pick up and learn on your own. You must be trained in how to use InDesign.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And if you want to make accessible PDFs from InDesign, you’ll need advanced training in that process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Just like when you want to make accessible PDFs from Word or PowerPoint, you’ll need advanced training.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There are no “easy buttons” for accessibility in any software program. The industry is decades away from having automatically building accessibility into the files we create.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Places to learn accessibility with Adobe InDesign:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">My classes, of courses and books! (shameless PR)
<a href="http://www.pubcom.com/classes">www.pubcom.com/classes</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">My conference sessions at AHG and other industry conferences
<a href="https://accessinghigherground.org/">https://accessinghigherground.org/</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Symbol"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span dir="LTR"></span><span lang="EN-US">Creative Pro conference next week (I’m hosting one session there, and my colleagues are hosting others)
<a href="https://creativeproweek.com/">https://creativeproweek.com/</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There are extremely few online video training courses I recommend because nearly all of the ones I’ve reviewed have either inaccurate information, insufficient information, or really don’t understand what an accessible
PDF requires. I have a lot of people in my classes who learned elsewhere, and then had to be retrained in the correct methods.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">RE: Adobe’s commitment put into perspective …<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I’ve been connected to Adobe since John Warnock developed scalable PostScript fonts in 1985. Never a paid employee, but I am an unpaid beta tester, unpaid advisor, and unpaid ACP (Adobe Community Professional) in Adobe’s
online forums. I’ve also been in similar positions with Microsoft and over 100 other software development companies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Although far from perfect, Adobe does have a solid commitment to accessibility. I just spent a couple of days in the ISO standards committees for PDFs with Adobe’s engineers and a few dozen other software engineers from
around the world. You might not see that commitment, but I do, first hand and up close. But I sure wish they’d do even more, of course.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Microsoft is also dedicated to accessibility, but I don’t see them in the ISO committees for PDF. However, we all see M S do a fair amount of advertising about their accessibility tools, like Immersive Reader. For some
reason, Adobe’s marketing department doesn’t do a shred of advertising about their accessibility work, even though it’s there.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And to be frank, no company that creates accessible PDFs could do that without Adobe’s foundation work on PDFs and accessibility. Adobe’s work comes first in creating the accessibility standards for PDF as well as the
first programs, and then other companies follow Adobe’s lead. And take all the glory, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In sum, it’s a mixed bag from all of our software manufacturers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#D0CECE">— — —<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Bevi Chagnon <b><span style="color:#AEAAAA">|
</span></b><span style="color:#595959">Designer, Accessibility Technician</span><b><span style="color:#AEAAAA"> |</span></b>
<a href="mailto:Chagnon@PubCom.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">Chagnon@PubCom.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#D0CECE">— — —<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">PubCom: <span style="color:#C00000">Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing</span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">consulting <span style="color:#D0CECE">•</span> training
<span style="color:#D0CECE">•</span> development <span style="color:#D0CECE">•</span> design
<span style="color:#D0CECE">•</span> sec. 508 services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">Upcoming classes</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> at
<a href="http://www.pubcom.com/classes"><span style="color:#0563C1">www.PubCom.com/<b>classes</b></span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#D0CECE">— — —<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574"><span style="color:#0563C1">Latest blog-newsletter</span></a> –
<b><a href="https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml"><span style="color:#0563C1">Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text</span></a></b>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Comden<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 10, 2021 2:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Making accessible info with InDesign?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Adobe has had over 20 years to figure out how to make the PDF process and products accessible. After all this time, it is difficult to come to any conclusion other than the company does not really care about accessibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 7:22 AM Susan Kelmer <<a href="mailto:Susan.Kelmer@colorado.edu">Susan.Kelmer@colorado.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="EN-US">Okay, to be fair...<br>
<br>
InDesign is for laying out material. It is what Adobe Pagemaker used to be (for those of you who have been around a while). You make text boxes and add pictures and manipulate layout, and come up with a file that can be printed onto paper. Ala 1990. InDesign
and Pagemaker were a replacement for the manual labor of physically creating the paper print using exacto knives and glue and light boards (for those that have been around even longer). In operation, it is not intended to be a program that provides all that
accessibility for the outputted file. I do not fault Adobe for this. There is, as far as I know, NO program that will do this completely effectively.
<br>
<br>
If you want to have an accessible output, you will have to do what you've always done - work it out in Adobe Acrobat Pro on the completed file. InDesign is not a text-based program, like Word is. Word is easy to output into a reasonably accessible PDF. InDesign
was never intended for that purpose, and runs on an old Pagemaker backbone that would have to be written from the ground up.<br>
<br>
And the only way for that to be a priority for companies like Adobe is if there is money in it. No one is clamoring to Adobe to make InDesign produce accessible PDFs. Until they are, that won't change.<br>
<br>
Susan Kelmer <br>
Alternate Format Production Program Manager<br>
Disability Services<br>
Division of Student Affairs <br>
T 303 735 4836<br>
<a href="http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices" target="_blank">www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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