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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Well, more than a handful of us create accessible math/STEM content, and it cannot be done nor can it be presented in PDF format.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Word with MathType, MathML, Latex. None of those convert to an PDF with accessible math. Just visual math.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Universal Design is great! It covers about 80-95% of the population. But there need to be (always!!) alternatives for that other 15-20%. This is why PDF is not a one-size-fits-all format, and seeing as Adobe
has no interest in figuring out how to be accessible to all, it is not likely to EVER be the one-size-fits-all format.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Susan Kelmer
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Alternate Format Production Program Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Disability Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Health and Wellness Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#CFB87C">T</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">303
735 4836</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#CFB87C"><a href="http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices"><span style="color:#CFB87C">www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#CFB87C"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#CFB87C"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you’ve received this email in error please notify the
sender immediately and delete this message. </span></i><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Green<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 10, 2022 4:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list@u.washington.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] article advocating for PDFs in College & Research Libraries News<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I have no experience of dealing with maths in any document format. I know people who do implement it in PDF, but I don’t know how they do it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">There are many types of content and many aspects of accessibility, so a full assessment of all them in all the different document formats would be a substantial piece of work. And some people never encounter some content
types, so some shortcomings of a particular document format may not matter to them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">For instance, in 17 years of doing document remediation, I have never encountered maths, physics or chemical formulae, but I know someone who deals with exam papers who does hundreds of such PDFs every year. We do a lot
of annual financial reports in which every page has a unique, complex layout and dozens of charts, graphs, flowcharts, org charts etc., but some people in the education sector may never have to work on documents like this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Forms are one type of content that PDF can handle very well (if you know what you are doing), but Word handles extremely badly regardless of what you do.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">For people who need to use alternative colour themes, Adobe Reader’s colour substitution options for the text and background colours are far better than those in Word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">For people with low vision, PDF allows reflow options that don’t exist in Word. This means that the zoom level can be increased without limit without a horizontal scrollbar appearing, so you only need to scroll in one
direction. Adobe Reader has a basic reflow capability, while the VIP PDF Reader supports reflow even better. The nearest feature that Word has is the Web Layout, but horizontal scrolling is necessary even at low levels of magnification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John Gardner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 September 2022 23:50<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] article advocating for PDFs in College & Research Libraries News<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Steve, Math can be accessible in Word. How do you make math accessible in PDF?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Green<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 9, 2022 3:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] article advocating for PDFs in College & Research Libraries News<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I don’t agree with Susan’s assessment, other than the article is too short to consider all the aspects of what is a large topic. However, I didn’t see anything that I would consider to be incorrect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I also think that Susan has set up a false dichotomy between the ease of creating a small, simple accessible Word document and remediating a PDF that was exported from an inaccessible source file. When exporting from
Word, the resulting PDF will be at least as accessible as the Word file and in some ways it will be more accessible. It won’t be less accessible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Bear in mind that you never create a document as a PDF. It always starts as some other document format, such as Word, PowerPoint, InDesign etc. If you know how to make the source document accessible and you are happy
with that level of accessibility, the resulting PDF will not need any remediation in Acrobat.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">If you want to, you can do further remediation in Acrobat such that the PDF achieves a higher level of accessibility than is possible in the source document format. Even if you have done everything possible in Word, you
may be able to make the document even more accessible as a PDF, depending on what the content is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Steve Green<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Managing Director<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Test Partners Ltd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Susan Kelmer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 09 September 2022 20:36<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] article advocating for PDFs in College & Research Libraries News<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Well, there is some glaring misinformation in there, and definitely too short a piece to be truly useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Remediating a PDF is difficult and time-consuming, while creating a good quality accessible WORD document is easy and only takes a few steps. That good quality Word file, which only took a few minutes to create
properly, can then be output to multiple formats, including tagged PDF and HTML.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I am not sure the author really understands what he is talking about.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Susan Kelmer
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Alternate Format Production Program Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Disability Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Health and Wellness Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#CFB87C">T</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">303
735 4836</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#CFB87C"><a href="http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices"><span style="color:#CFB87C">www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#CFB87C"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#CFB87C"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue",serif;color:black"><img border="0" width="150" height="56" style="width:1.5625in;height:.5833in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D8C67C.7870EAA0"></span><span style="color:#0070C0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D">Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you’ve received this email in error please notify the
sender immediately and delete this message. </span></i><i><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Adina Mulliken<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 9, 2022 12:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Athen] article advocating for PDFs in College & Research Libraries News<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black">Sorry, this article might not be the best thing to share on a Friday afternoon, but here it is. I’m not agreeing with the
article. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black">Chee, M., & Weaver, K. (2022). The great PDF debate: Accessible or impossible?. <em><span style="font-family:inherit;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in">College
& Research Libraries News, 83</span></em>(8), 363. doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.5860/crln.83.8.363"><span style="color:#56B0C9;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in">https://doi.org/10.5860/crln.83.8.363</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Open Sans",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black">At least the article cites a couple of articles that advocate a different view.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Adina<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Adina Mulliken<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Associate Professor, Librarian Silberman Social Work and Urban Public Health Library<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hunter College, City University of New York<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">2180 3<sup>rd</sup> Ave. New York, NY<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Phone 212-396-7665<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Pronouns she/her<o:p></o:p></p>
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