<div dir="ltr">I appreciate your bluntness. As a screen reader user, I have attempted simply to edit a PDF before with no success. Even editing is not possible since the screen reader processes the PDF into a virtual buffer. Not to mention, Acrobat Reader and Foxit (particularly Foxit) lag the hell out of JAWS/NVDA, have odd focusing issues, and simply don't work all that well. The most I've been able to do is to combine PDF files, or split a PDF into multiple files and that's only if each section has been tagged so that I can export it.<div><br></div><div>I'd much rather have a text file; although, HTML/Word documents are beneficial because you can add headings and other quick navigation elements. PDFs are just a mess; often when rendered by the screen reader, words are squished together, among other issues. They're simply not a pleasant experience to this day.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Robert</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:03 AM Susan Kelmer <<a href="mailto:Susan.Kelmer@colorado.edu">Susan.Kelmer@colorado.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-6352048642405328657">
<div lang="EN-US" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div class="m_-6352048642405328657WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">I will add one more comment to this stream…<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion. Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause. You fix one thing, and it breaks
another. You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to “fix” a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted
into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And I’ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly: If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see. You don’t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven’t been done properly,
etc. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files. They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are
missing parts or errors. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I continue to be confused by the push to “fix” PDFs that are poorly made. We need to not bother. Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Susan Kelmer
</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Alternate Format Production Program Manager<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Disability Services<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">Health and Wellness Services<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(207,184,124)">T</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">303
735 4836</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(207,184,124)"><a href="http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(207,184,124)">www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices</span></a>
<u></u><u></u></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(207,184,124)"><u></u><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span><u></u></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(207,184,124)"><u></u><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span><u></u></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:black"><img border="0" width="150" height="56" style="width: 1.5625in; height: 0.5833in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_7" src="cid:1882a16c7f57745b44"></span><span style="color:rgb(0,112,192)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you’ve received this email in error please notify the
sender immediately and delete this message. </span></i><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen McCall<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can’t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical
reading order.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can’t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document
to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">Cheers, Karen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Ferrara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">American Printing House<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Main 502 895 2396<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:pferrara@aph.org" target="_blank">pferrara@aph.org</a></span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="90" height="108" style="width: 0.9375in; height: 1.125in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:1882a16c7f54cff311"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><a href="http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="86" height="86" style="width: 0.8958in; height: 0.8958in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:1882a16c7f55b16b22" alt="JAWS Certified, 2019"></span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><img border="0" width="459" height="87" style="width: 4.7812in; height: 0.9062in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_6" src="cid:1882a16c7f56917eb3" alt="IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen McCall<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets
tagged.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot
determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional
vision.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">I’ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)">Cheers, Karen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Cambria,serif;color:rgb(31,56,100)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list-bounces@mailman12.u.washington.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Ferrara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Access Technology Higher Education Network <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Athen] PDF remediation help<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We are looking for any or all of the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="m_-6352048642405328657MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS.<u></u><u></u></li><li class="m_-6352048642405328657MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility.
Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><i><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">American Printing House<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Main 502 895 2396<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:pferrara@aph.org" target="_blank">pferrara@aph.org</a></span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="90" height="108" style="width: 0.9375in; height: 1.125in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:1882a16c7f54cff311"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><a href="http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="86" height="86" style="width: 0.8958in; height: 0.8958in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:1882a16c7f55b16b22" alt="JAWS Certified, 2019"></span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><img border="0" width="459" height="87" style="width: 4.7812in; height: 0.9062in;" id="m_-6352048642405328657Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:1882a16c7f56917eb3" alt="IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:2pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
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</div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Robert Spangler</div><div dir="ltr">Disability Services Technical Support Specialist</div><div>Office of Learning Resources</div><div dir="ltr">Ryan C. Harris Learning Teaching Center (LTC)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Roesch Library Room: 023</div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Phone: 937-229-2066</div><div dir="ltr">For Deaf/Hard of Hearing, call 711 (Ohio Relay)</div><div dir="ltr">For office hours and further OLR information, please visit <a href="http://go.udayton.edu/olr" target="_blank">go.udayton.edu/olr</a></div><div dir="ltr">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE</div><div dir="ltr">The information contained in this electronic message is confidential and intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail or any of its components is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please "reply" to the sender.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>