[Athen] [EXT]Re: PDF remediation help

[Robert Beach]

What you are describing is what I usually see with PDF’s that have been OCRed by Adobe rather than a good OCR package. I have ABBYY PDF Reader at home and I have been pretty impressed with the results I get without having to do any editing. I have even had it make language adjustments a couple of times as well as adding heading styles.



Robert Lee Beach
Assistive Technology Specialist – Student Accessibility & Support Services

Kansas City Kansas Community College
7250 State Ave. - Suite # 3384 - Kansas City, KS 66112
O 913-288-7671 | F 913-288-7678
rbeach at kckcc.edu<mailto:rbeach at kckcc.edu>



From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Robert Spangler
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 9:28 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [EXT]Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

CAUTION: This email originated outside KCKCC. Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the content is safe. Please forward all suspicious emails to support at kckcc.edu<mailto:support at kckcc.edu>.
I appreciate your bluntness.  As a screen reader user, I have attempted simply to edit a PDF before with no success.  Even editing is not possible since the screen reader processes the PDF into a virtual buffer.  Not to mention, Acrobat Reader and Foxit (particularly Foxit) lag the hell out of JAWS/NVDA, have odd focusing issues, and simply don't work all that well.  The most I've been able to do is to combine PDF files, or split a PDF into multiple files and that's only if each section has been tagged so that I can export it.

I'd much rather have a text file; although, HTML/Word documents are beneficial because you can add headings and other quick navigation elements.  PDFs are just a mess; often when rendered by the screen reader, words are squished together, among other issues.  They're simply not a pleasant experience to this day.

Thanks,
Robert


On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:03 AM Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu<mailto:Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>> wrote:
I will add one more comment to this stream…

Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor, in my opinion.  Even with great software tools, even with hard work and attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause.  You fix one thing, and it breaks another.  You are in an endless loop of editing this tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible.

The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first place. I have not bothered to “fix” a PDF in years; if it needs massive remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program, and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document.

And I’ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly:  If you are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot see.  You don’t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven’t been done properly, etc.

And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files.  They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no idea there are missing parts or errors.

I continue to be confused by the push to “fix” PDFs that are poorly made.  We need to not bother.  Our time is better spent remediating into a format that works for more people.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices<http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices>


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From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can’t tell if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags are in the logical reading order.

With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of accessibility, you can’t get around the fact that you need to see the tags and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or not the elements I mentioned above are in place.

Cheers, Karen

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in?

Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber
Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6
American Printing House
1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206
Main 502 895 2396
pferrara at aph.org<mailto:pferrara at aph.org>

[cid:image002.png at 01D988A2.D77AD090]
[JAWS Certified, 2019]<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
[IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo]


From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader and has no functional vision.

The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF through what gets tagged.

Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange them in a logical reading order.

I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work without functional vision.

Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible.

The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components.

I’ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years.

Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification.

Cheers, Karen

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Paul Ferrara
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [Athen] PDF remediation help

All,
We are looking for any or all of the following:

  1.  Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents, training must work with JAWS.
  2.  Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features, but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you.


Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber
Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6
American Printing House
1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206
Main 502 895 2396
pferrara at aph.org<mailto:pferrara at aph.org>

[cid:image002.png at 01D988A2.D77AD090]
[JAWS Certified, 2019]<http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>
[IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo]


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Robert Spangler
Disability Services Technical Support Specialist
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