[Athen] PDF remediation help

[Robert Spangler]

I appreciate your bluntness.  As a screen reader user, I have attempted
simply to edit a PDF before with no success.  Even editing is not possible
since the screen reader processes the PDF into a virtual buffer.  Not to
mention, Acrobat Reader and Foxit (particularly Foxit) lag the hell out of
JAWS/NVDA, have odd focusing issues, and simply don't work all that well.
The most I've been able to do is to combine PDF files, or split a PDF into
multiple files and that's only if each section has been tagged so that I
can export it.

I'd much rather have a text file; although, HTML/Word documents are
beneficial because you can add headings and other quick navigation
elements.  PDFs are just a mess; often when rendered by the screen reader,
words are squished together, among other issues.  They're simply not a
pleasant experience to this day.

Thanks,
Robert


On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 10:03 AM Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>
wrote:


> I will add one more comment to this stream…

>

>

>

> Remediating PDFs is a useless, time-consuming, and frustrating endeavor,

> in my opinion.  Even with great software tools, even with hard work and

> attention to detail, remediating PDFs is just a lost cause.  You fix one

> thing, and it breaks another.  You are in an endless loop of editing this

> tiny thing and that tiny thing and you eventually get something you can

> sort of trust, but it will never be completely accessible.

>

>

>

> The only way to have a really great PDF is to create it right in the first

> place. I have not bothered to “fix” a PDF in years; if it needs massive

> remediation, it gets extracted to text using a good quality OCR program,

> and reformatted into a clean and accessible Word or HTML document.

>

>

>

> And I’ll say what Karen has been saying, only a bit more bluntly:  If you

> are blind and trying to do this remediation, you cannot see what you cannot

> see.  You don’t know what elements are being missed, what elements haven’t

> been done properly, etc.

>

>

>

> And as a side note, this is my biggest complaint with Bookshare files.

> They are often loaded with errors, missing elements, etc. I, as a sighted

> person, can see what is missing and fix it, but the student with BVI has no

> idea there are missing parts or errors.

>

>

>

> I continue to be confused by the push to “fix” PDFs that are poorly made.

> We need to not bother.  Our time is better spent remediating into a format

> that works for more people.

>

>

>

> *Susan Kelmer *

>

> Alternate Format Production Program Manager

>

> Disability Services

>

> Health and Wellness Services

>

> *T* 303 735 4836

>

> *www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices

> <http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices> *

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this

> message cannot be guaranteed. If you’ve received this email in error please

> notify the sender immediately and delete this message. *

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Karen McCall

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 7:53 AM

> *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

>

>

>

> The problem is the same. If you depend on a screen reader, you can’t tell

> if all of the content is tagged, if it is tagged correctly and if the tags

> are in the logical reading order.

>

>

>

> With any automated tool, while the tool may have some level of

> accessibility, you can’t get around the fact that you need to see the tags

> and the physical document to know what you are looking at and whether or

> not the elements I mentioned above are in place.

>

>

>

> Cheers, Karen

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Paul Ferrara

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 17, 2023 8:31 AM

> *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

>

>

>

> Have you tried using the Common Look PDF plug-in?

>

>

>

> *Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber*

>

> *Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6*

>

> American Printing House

>

> 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206

>

> Main 502 895 2396

>

> pferrara at aph.org

>

>

>

> [image: JAWS Certified, 2019]

> <http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>

>

> [image: IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo]

>

>

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Karen McCall

> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2023 2:00 PM

> *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] PDF remediation help

>

>

>

> PDF remediation is not possible for someone who depends on a screen reader

> and has no functional vision.

>

>

>

> The reason for this is that you have to match the tags in the tags tree to

> what you see on the physical page. Screen readers can only read a PDF

> through what gets tagged.

>

>

>

> Someone depending on a screen reader cannot tell if content has not been

> tagged. They cannot tell if the tag is the correct one for the type of

> content and they cannot determine a logical reading order for the document

> without being able to see the document. For example, if the PDF is a

> tri-fold brochure you need to divide the panels into parts and rearrange

> them in a logical reading order.

>

>

>

> I provide training on remediating PDFs and my material is accessible. I

> have a visual disability and use a screen reader but could not do this work

> without functional vision.

>

>

>

> Someone using a screen reader can do user testing on PDFs but only after

> the PDFs have been remediated or made accessible.

>

>

>

> The other aspect of this is that Adobe Acrobat Pro, Foxit PDF Editor and

> PowerPDF are not keyboard accessible for most of the UI components.

>

>

>

> I’ve been working in the field of accessible PDFs for about 23 years.

>

>

>

> Please contact me if you have questions or need clarification.

>

>

>

> Cheers, Karen

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Paul Ferrara

> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 16, 2023 12:56 PM

> *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* [Athen] PDF remediation help

>

>

>

> All,

>

> We are looking for any or all of the following:

>

>    1. Accessible training on using Acrobat to remediate PDF documents,

>    training must work with JAWS.

>    2. Other options to complement or replace Acrobat in remediating PDF

>    documents. I tried Common Look, but the trial did not last long enough to

>    test for full screen reader accessibility. Equidox has lots of features,

>    but its creators acknowledge accessibility defects. Options or

>    recommendations are needed. We would like to start remediating our own PDF

>    documents instead of sending them elsewhere. Thank you.

>

>

>

>

>

> *Paul Ferrara, CPACC, ADS, Certified Braille Transcriber*

>

> *Communications Accessibility Editor, Dot6*

>

> American Printing House

>

> 1839 Frankfort Avenue, Louisville, KY 40206

>

> Main 502 895 2396

>

> pferrara at aph.org

>

>

>

> [image: JAWS Certified, 2019]

> <http://www.freedomscientific.com/Certification>

>

> [image: IAAP Accessible Document Specialist Logo]

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> athen-list mailing list

> athen-list at mailman12.u.washington.edu

> http://mailman12.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list

>



-- 
Robert Spangler
Disability Services Technical Support Specialist
Office of Learning Resources
Ryan C. Harris Learning Teaching Center (LTC)
Roesch Library Room: 023
Phone: 937-229-2066
For Deaf/Hard of Hearing, call 711 (Ohio Relay)
For office hours and further OLR information, please visit
go.udayton.edu/olr
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