[Athen] Alternate text question

[foreigntype at gmail.com]

Good for you on publishing a white paper. Good luck getting the publishers
to provide suitable alt text. Do you work in alternative text production
directly?

Someone has to buy the book(s) in order to create alt-format text.

In the colleges where I teach it is a requirement for ALL students to have
(or have access to) books required for class. If they refuse to or cannot
obtain the required books, the instructors can drop them from class.

It's not a moral argument about books in alt-format. The books are not
available to the general public in alt format. You're suggesting that
because they are not available from the publisher directly they shouldn't
have to be held responsible for the same book purchase as every other
student is expected to have? This is a moot point about whether students
with disabilities are held to a different standard (obtaining books). If
they cannot buy them directly from the publishers (which they cannot
currently), or through any other book outlet (which they cannot),
you're/your office is denying them access to their materials in a timely
manner.

I'm not sure now where equity, equitable and equal treatment come in if
everyone except the students with disabilities are required to obtain their
own books. If no one is purchasing the books in order to create accessible
formatted text, how does this work in the equity and inclusion reality? Who
checks the publishers' alt formatted text to ensure they're correct,
complete, and the correct format for the student in question?

Wink Harner
Accessibility Consultant/Alternative Text Production
The Foreign Type

Portland OR
foreigntype at gmail.com
480-984-0034

This email was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive
quirks, misrecognitions, or errata .


On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 11:26 AM Butler, Brandon (bcb4y) <bcb4y at virginia.edu>
wrote:


> Wink,

>

> You say, “Publishers are not inclined, trained, or required to provide

> alt-text formatted books.”

>

> Of course, architects and civil engineers were similarly disinclined to

> make buildings and sidewalks accessible prior to the ADA imposing legal

> obligations for them to do so. Broadcasters would be similarly situated to

> closed captions if the FCC didn’t require them. Publishers have so far

> eluded any legal obligation to make their products accessible. Given that,

> it seems more than reasonable that the law imposes no obligation on

> entities like ours to require purchase of inaccessible products as a

> precondition to providing an accessible version.

>

> At any rate, whatever the merits may be of the moral arguments in favor of

> forcing disabled students to purchase useless products, there is no legal

> argument for it, unless you have promised a vendor you will do so. That was

> my only original claim and I stand by it. If you feel a moral obligation to

> force these purchases despite the absence of any legal obligation to do so,

> that is entirely up to you.

>

> Best,

> Brandon

> ------------------------------

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> on

> behalf of foreigntype at gmail.com <foreigntype at gmail.com>

> *Sent:* Thursday, December 16, 2021 12:55:09 PM

> *To:* Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] Alternate text question

>

> Brandon,

>

> Publishers are not inclined, trained, or required to provide alt-text

> formatted books. While it would be lovely in a perfect universe for

> students to be able to go to the book kiosk and select TTS or screen reader

> formatted, or Braille, it is not a business model publishers are likely to

> adopt. Students are all required to obtain assigned textbooks for their

> classes. DSS offices are responsible for providing the alt text

> appropriately formatted text. All students are expected to

> purchase/rent/obtain the books and those who require alternative text are

> provided with accessible materials at no (additional) cost to them.

>

> I will carry on converting books and other class materials to appropriate

> formats for the students who need alt text. I will continue to be proactive

> in requesting the books in advance from publishers, ATN, Bookshare, and

> other sources and enduring the students(s) have their appropriately

> formatted books in hand at the beginning of the semester. Why should

> students with disabilities be held to a lower standard than their peers?

>

> Wink Harner

>

> On Thu, Dec 16, 2021 at 5:55 AM Butler, Brandon (bcb4y) <

> bcb4y at virginia.edu> wrote:

>

> Hi Wink,

>

>

>

> Please read the white paper, which I helped to prepare after a 2-day

> roundtable discussion with a who’s-who of copyright lawyers, disability

> rights lawyers and other experts, including Jamie. There just isn’t

> anything in the law that requires students to buy an inaccessible book

> before they can be provided with an accessible one. If you can tell me

> where you find such a requirement, either in Section 121 or in the

> HathiTrust opinion (the only two sources of law on this subject, more or

> less), I’d be grateful, and we will revise the white paper accordingly. But

> neither I nor any expert in that meeting could see any legal basis for this

> practice.

>

>

>

> Best,

>

> Brandon

>

>

>

>

>

> *From: *athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> on

> behalf of foreigntype at gmail.com <foreigntype at gmail.com>

> *Date: *Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 6:37 PM

> *To: *Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject: *Re: [Athen] Alternate text question

>

> Scott,

>

> I respectfully disagree. I'm going to throw out Jamie Axelrod's NAU info

> page on what's necessary to fulfill copyright requirements:

> https://in.nau.edu/disability-resources/alternate-format-program/#:~:text=Publishers%20currently%20have%20a%20requirement,proof%20of%20purchase%20on%20file

> .

>

>

>

> If textbooks are required for classes and the expectation is that all

> students must have the books (or access to the books) for class, why should

> students with disabilities be exempted from the requirement? This is

> federal copyright law. Among the gods we serve in alt-text production and

> accommodations, OCR is god#1 and copyright is god#2.

>

>

>

> My 2.5 cents for a rainy bleak midwinter's day in the PNW.

>

> Wink Harner

>

> Accessibility Consultant/Alternative Text Production

>

> The Foreign Type

>

> Portland OR

> foreigntype at gmail.com

> 480-984-0034

>

> This email was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Please forgive

> quirks, misrecognitions, or errata .

>

>

>

>

>

> On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 1:33 PM Lissner, L. Scott <lissner.2 at osu.edu>

> wrote:

>

> The short answer is, in my opinion, no.    The long answer with supporting

> documention can be found at

> https://www.arl.org/resources/the-law-and-accessible-texts-reconciling-civil-rights-and-copyrights/

>

>

>

>

>

> [image: Block “0” Logo: The Ohio State University]

>

> L. Scott Lissner,

>

> Americans With Disabilities Act Coordinator and Section 504 Compliance

> Officer

>

> Office of Institutional Equity

>

>

>

> (614) 292-7024(v); (614) 688-8605(tty) (614) 688-3665(fax);

> Http://ada.osu.edu <http://ada.osu.edu/>

>

>

>

> “The American story is about the slow, yet steady widening of opportunity.

> Make no mistake: too many dreams have been deferred for too long. We must

> make the promise of the country real for everybody — no matter their race,

> their ethnicity, their faith, their identity or their disability.”

>

> *— President-Elect Joe Biden, 11/7/20*

>

>

>

>

>

> On 12/15/21, 1:56 PM, "athen-list on behalf of Kluesner, Bryon" <

> athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu on behalf of

> Bryon-Kluesner at utc.edu> wrote:

>

>

>

> Hi all,

>

>

>

> When you work with students who have been approved for alternate texts, do

> you require proof of purchase or proof of having a copy of the text, such

> as purchase from Amazon, having a “physical copy”, whether used or bought

> from a friend?

>

>

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

> Bryon

>

>

>

> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/615+McCallie+Ave.,+Dept.+2953+%0D%0A+Chattanooga,+TN+37403?entry=gmail&source=g>

>

> Bryon Kluesner RhD, ATAC

>

> Adaptive Technology Coordinator

>

> Disability Resource Center

>

> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga

>

> 615 McCallie Ave., Dept. 2953

> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/615+McCallie+Ave.,+Dept.+2953+%0D%0A+Chattanooga,+TN+37403?entry=gmail&source=g>

>

> Chattanooga, TN 37403

> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/615+McCallie+Ave.,+Dept.+2953+%0D%0A+Chattanooga,+TN+37403?entry=gmail&source=g>

>

> 423-425-5251

>

>

>

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> --

> Wink Harner Assistive Technology Consulting and Training Alternative Text

> Production Portland OR. foreigntype at gmail.com 480-984-0034

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